I need some good quality SW 1500s

I need some good quality SW 1500s in Kansas City Southern (white) paint and sound.  Athearn has some new KCS SW 1500 units, but they are in the wrong paint and it appears they will not be producing undecorated units.

I was considering getting some undecorated BLI SW 1500 units, so I will be very interested to hear how these BLI units work.

Broadway Limited - EMD SW1500 #2761 & #2762...

I'm not familiar with BLI decoders, but if theirs are like the other guys, they have plastic clips holding the wires to teh decoder board. If so get rid of them and solder the wires on!!!. Also check for continuity between the truck wheels and the decoder. Check each wheel on each side as well as between each wheel on the same side of the truck.  Joe

YouTube video

look at 0:38sec watch the head light

look at 0:58  again

look at 4:08  again

Are you running

DCC?  Are your other units configured similarly?  Factory sound with DCC board.  I find it interesting that both units  seem to be responding identically to the same sections.  I would measure the voltage at the questionable sections and sections that seem to work alright.  The paragon system may be more sensitive to voltage fluction than what you have in the other units.  

I would Also check the wire connectors on the decoder.  These did have a bumpy ride to down under.  If they are not snug, that may cause a voltage sensitivity.  At the end of the day, I would solder them, but not before you get the warrantee issues sorted out.

i just got a SW7 made by BLI.  I haven't done much with it yet.  They claim to have the "best" low speed performance.  With your issues, I'm courious to see what that really means.

Good luck,

Larry

Hey GetSmart...

Those time points you refer to are an actually feature of the SP model, it's like a mars like function on the switcher.

They actually run that smooth at slow speed, they are extremely good with this. 

Jas...

Thanks Larry...

Yes both running DCC through a NCE PowerPro 5 amp system.  Both units are factory sound installed, and yes I think power sensitivity is possibly the cause, watching them traverse my layout you can see the lights flickering.

I will check the voltage (good idea) I know that all my other locomotives have no issues with the section of tracks causing issues with the BL units, even my Athearn SW1500 has no issues with these sections.  They run across insulfrog turnouts & electrofrog turnouts (PECO) without issue.

Its going to be a process of elimination, unfortunately frustrating with brand new units...

Jas... 

Oil around wheel<>truck transfer points, Ath<>BLI SW1500s

Dear Jas,

No experience with BLI units specifically, but excess grease and oil around the wheel<> truck transfer points,
(the sintered bronze axle bearings and associated axle-positions particularly) can cause spotty pickup symtoms.

Also NB that if just one side of one truck is isolated due to dodgy wiring/clips/etc,
(either at the decoder end of the truck<> decoder wire, or the truck-end),

then oily-axle-bearings type symtoms can become magnified and much-more-obvious
(no surprise, the "4-point-per-side" pickup pattern becomes a "2-point-per-side",
and it only takes one of those remaining active pickup-points to hit dirty track to bring the unit to a stop).

Suggestion, re-run the BLIs over a single "known problematic" turnout,
(either LH or RH turnout, but choose one and Stick With It for the purpose of the test).

and make a careful note of:
- does the loco always stop when facing a given direction?
(front facing Eastbound, VS front facing Westbound)

- If YES, does that direction always correspond to the loco stopping when a given truck is over the frog?
(EG front-truck heading east = bad, front truck heading west = appears OK) 

If YES, 
- the identified truck likely has Oily-bearing or pickup-issues,
- and the other truck on the same side of the loco likely has a bad pickup wire or some other "permanently isolated" fault condition.

(IE the truck not on the frog is not contributing to normal-pickup operation.
The truck on the frog is keeping the unit moving.
When that truck is also isolated due to passing over a dodgy frog or similar, 
the cumulative effect is a complete isolation on one rail,
and therefore no-movement...)

Stock procedure for truck-pickup oil-reduction
(assuming Ath-type 1/2 axle + centre gear + bronze bearing config):

- Remove of each axle,
- seperate the wheel-halves and centre gear,
- remove the bearings from each wheel-half
- use a piece of kitchen paper or similar to blot/wipe-away all excess oil from the bearings, inc twizzling the kitchen paper thru the centre hole/bore
(the whole point of using sintered bronze bearings is that they are oil-impregnated, and self-lubing. Excess Oil on the surface = intermittent pickup behaviour)
- using a clean piece/section of kitchen paper, grasp the 1/2 axle, and with the other hand spin the wheel.
The aim is to wipe the axle right up against where it meets the wheel, 
IE where the bearing normally sits
to get the excess surface oil off the surface of the axle
- re-mount the bearing on the 1/2 axle, NB how freely it spins without the surface oil dogging the motion
(there will still be enough microscopic surface oil to lube everything, just not the excess which messes with the electrical contact)
- re-assemble the wheelsets, making sure to check the gauging is correct, and the centre gear _is_centred_ between the 1/2 axles.
- re-assemble the wheelsets into the loco

and re-test...

The same procedure can be adapted to Kato-type trucks with wheel contactor plates and similar mechs. The key being, clean the crotical contact points, and eliminate the excess oil at those points.

Must admit as SW1500s are my fave loco type, I was sweating on these to be released.
With a something-like 5-year lag between announcement and release, 
a price point more than twice a HH-era Ath SW1500s,
(which I've personally never had a moment's trouble with),

and an existing roster which admitedly is already too large to host on any of my layouts,

It would have to be a very fortuitous set of circumstances,
combined with a "grabbed by the lapels and won't let go" standout model,
before any of my Aths get replaced with BLIs...
(I've also previously been bitten by BLI's "operation on analog" behaviour,
and with over 1/2 my layouts being analog controlled,
I'd want confirmation that they would "play nice" under typical conditions...)

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS we have no info about the BLI built-in "keep-alive" performance, so once the truck pickups and wiring is checked/exonerated, next step is to temporarily remove the decoder, and do a literal "does it run OK on analog DC" test... 

KCS SW1500 details...

Dear Jim,

What trucks did the KCS units run? AAR or Flexicoil?
Did they use similar lightpacks to the SP versions?

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Thanks Prof for the advice...

Will have a look tonight at all that, do some continuity testing and check all the connections.

i hear what your saying about the Athearn SW1500, have two and never had an issue with either of them of the same track I'm having issues with with the BLI units.

ill let you know how it all goes.

Jas...

KCS SW 1500

It appears that the BLI SW1500s have flexicoil trucks, while I will need AAR trucks for my KCS units.  Does BLI or someone else make  AAR truck frames that will fit the BLI SW1500?

The new Athearn SW1500s do not appear to have sound. I have one Athearn BB SW1500 (non-sound).  I  replaced the Athearn headlights with new bulbs and the shell melted,  There is also not much room in the Athearn BB SW1500 for a sound decoder and speaker.  The KCS SW1500s only have a single head light and not multiple lights like SP.

The search for KCS units...

Dear Jim,

Don't know about the BLI, but Ath AAR sideframes are a press-on fit to the Ath trucks (after removing the flexicoils), and are available as a spare-part reasonably cheaply.

Shell-melting sounds pretty extreme, were these 12V or 3-5V bulbs? May I ask, why not LEDs?

According to Soundtraxx, fitting sound in a SW1500 is a "tight, but do-able with patience" exercise...
http://www.soundtraxx.com/documents/appnotes/SW1000&SW-1500App.pdf
/> (NB there are smaller speaker options now available, the "sugar cube" and "iPhone5" units come to mind...)

The first (or possibly second) HH-era Ath SW1500 run had IHB orange-on-black "operation lifesaver" schemes available with AAR trucks. Would these work as a donor?

http://www.springcreekmodeltrains.com/HOinstock/Athearn/ATHH1010.html

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Athearn SW1500

I had fit a DH123 decoder in the Athearn SW1500,and put new15v lights behind each headlight. I glued them in with a small bit of clear latex caulk thinking it would insulate the shell from the heat.  My Digitrax DCC system puts aout about 14v so the lights were not at full voltage,but looked fine. I have1.5v bulbs and clear LEDs but would need to wire in a resister to drop the voltage. I did not want to do the work for a nonsound unit. The problem with sound in these units is room for  a decent speaker.  I tried a Digitrax N scale sound decoder with a small speaker and the sound quality is very poor.

I have several Athearn MP15s (not KCS) but they have the old MRC sound decoders and they are on the workbench to replace the decoders.  The frames of these units have space for a speaker.  With the cost of modifing an old unit for DCC/Sound, my preference has been to buy factory sound units.

I may go ahead and get some undecorated  BLI SW1500 units and change the truck side frames.

Detailing

Jas,

You probably already know...but for an accurate Reading unit:

• The exhaust stacks need painted green.
• The sun shades need removed.
• The multi-chime horn needs replaced by a single chime.
• The roof needs drip stripes and a Sinclair antenna.

Note units 2750 to 2760 had AAR tracks rather then Flexcoil ones.

Atlas Did One

I have KCS White MP15 AC. With sound runs great. Have 5 of them in fact.  They are the switchers of choice for the Grande Pacific.

Atlas MP15

I have one KCS (white) Atlas MP15 with a QSI sound decoder which was a birthday present from my wife. It runs great. She only bought one unit,  I picked up an Atlas non-sound KSC MP15 and it is on the workbench waiting for a decoder.

My layout models the KSC/MILW joint agency terminal in Kansas City and I need at least 6 KCS SW 1500 in white paint.

Thanks Nick...

Apart from those things you mentioned they also didn't have marker lights on the cab and nose.  This would be a major job to remove them fill them in and repaint.  Also there are some minor painting location issues too.

The Sinclair antenna, drip strips and exhaust stack colour shouldn't be to much of an issue.  To be honest I'm not really that fussed I'm just glad to have a few more RDG SW1500 switchers in the fleet, they are hard to find.

I suppose to the purist these will be disappointing and having to spend money and some significant work to get them close to prototypical will leave a bad taste in their mouths.

Jas...

Disappointed with my BLI SW-1500

After waiting for several years for BLI to come out with the long promised SW-1500 in L&N paint, and based on how well my first DCC/Sound equipped locomotive operated (a BLI NW-2); I purchased the BLI SW-1500. I have to say that I'm more than a little disappointed with this model. Although the detail, painting, etc. is quite good and closely matches the SW-1500's I operated on the L&N in the 1970's, this model is not a great performer and the sound drives me nuts with its rather strange behaviors! (More on that in a minute).

Out of the box, the model did not run as smooth as the NW-2 or any of my other DCC loco's and stalled frequently in places where there seemed to be no reason to stall. Wheels and track clean and not moving through a turnout, but it would just stall out. I also noticed the headlight flickering quite a bit too. No matter what CV's I've adjusted, I can't get it to start and stop smoothly and at speed step 1 (with either 28 or 128 speed steps) you can see a lot of jerking as it moves along. Once you get to speed step 2 or 3 it does smooth out, but that jerking at slow speed drives me nuts! I have also given the model about an hours break in running on a test oval I have and that has not improved its performance.

As for the sound - way too loud out of the box (easy fix) and for the most part, it does sound like an SW-1500, but I noticed that periodically the sound volume seems to drop for a few seconds then return to the set volume. The biggest issue I have with the sound is the engine revs and when the loco comes to a stop, it sounds like it's in Run 8 for several seconds! Don't know what that's all about, but you have to let the model settle back into idle before moving again or the sound seems to get out of sync. Also the horn! Geez, I can't find any CV setting to stop the unwanted echo effect and often the horn will add a couple of short blasts on its own after you release the horn button!

Reading some of the preceding posts on here I'll look into making sure the power connections are making good contact and solder them to the board if needed, but don't know if that will cure the problems I'm experiencing.

Maybe I'm just being too finicky about the sound issues, but with its less than satisfactory performance, I'm afraid that this model is going to the next swap meet or just end up on the display shelf.

SD70M2 I feel your pain...

The issues you are describing are "exactly" the same issues I am getting with both my RDG units.

The sound fluctuations are extremely annoying, I thought this may be associated with idea that the units have a power pick up problem.  I'm glad in a way you have the same problems because it's clearly not an issue with just mine, I think this is going to be a global issue with the units, possible the decoders.

I have also tried increasing the start voltage to stop the stalling and cutting out but it hasn't worked.  I had to run both my units a speed steep 8 to clear a turnout that I have had no issues with, with any of my other short wheelbase switchers.

I also had an experience when one of the switchers locked up completely, trying to reset the decoder using CV8 did not work.  I had to remove the shell and press a small button on the decoder while cycling the layout power.

I'm also experiencing the lagging sound (running at high revs) after you idle to a stop, I've also noticed that the manual notching isn't very responsive either.  I'm also annoyed with the echo on the horn and the two extra blast at the end.

I'll try and look into the connections too, but if all else fails I may just put in a Soundtraxx Tsunami decoder, for me returning the units to BLI is limited because the shipping from Australia won't be worth it.  Unfortunately I think those of us who have them are going to be disappointed...

Jas...

taming BEMF, setting Sound CVs

Dear ??? (SD), Jason,

In order of appearance:

Flickering lights tends to suggest pickup issues, and maybe no/little K-A capability in stock config. See earlier posts.

Suggests BEMF settings which are not optimised. That the unit "smooths out" at higher speed steps tends to rule-out an inherrent mechanical issue. Suggest trying some of the documented "how to tame K-P-I BEMF settings on a TSU" procedures, using CVs 112 -120, preferrably via a JMRI programming rig.

Also check the "Kick Start" CV 65 value.

http://www.broadway-limited.com/support/manuals/paragon2techDiesel.pdf

http://www.broadway-limited.com/support/manuals/Paragon2%20Diesel%20Operators%20Manual.pdf

Again, suggesting an "electronic" issue rather than a mechanical one.
(Belt and Braces test: remove the decoder from circuit, wire the motor direct to the wheels,
and test on a decent analog throttle...)

Common to most sound decoders with "stock config"...

Suggest checking recent threads RE WOW diesel decoder, and TSU configs. Setting the momentum values in the with a significant ammount of momentum can be critical to getting what-feels-like "visual<> aural logical" sound/motion correlation. Are you running any momentum in the decoder at the moment?

Check the "Horn fade In/Out Level" CVs 181-183
(I note there is no independent "reverb level" CV,
which suggests the reverb may not be DSP created onboard, but rather "in the sound file itself").

Also, discrete audible "Echo - cho" may be due to the digital audio player playing the digital file twice with a perceptible delay... (IE soft/firmware issue?)

Hope this helps...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS both Jason and SD, what DCC systems are you both running? Are they the same make/model?
Wouldn't be the first time that a given decoder works fine on DCC-SystemA, but mis-behaves on DCC-SystemB (differing track voltages, subtle timing differences, etc etc)

Also RE horn "toot-tooting", are you running "playable whistle" mode on the DCC-system?
Unsure if BLI knows how to handle such commands?

Prof...

I'm using a NCE PowerPro 5 amp system.

Looking through the Paragon 2 manual it looks like you have the ability to turn off the auto throttle/load sensing.  I think this could be an issue?

Jas...

These descriptions make

the issues appear to be more random in nature than Jas's original post indicated.  You answered a question I had relative to speed steps.  It is sounding like this unit is coming off the line in a poorly tuned state for the DCC with sound system.  One would hope the manufacturers default would give you a nominally "OK" operating unit over the entire operating envelope.

The LED flicker means that that circuit is being starved for current at that time.  Can you associate the flicker with sound activity?  I think you have indicated the unit is jerky, particularly at low speed, but also at higher speed settings.  I assume the LED flicker corresponds to a jurk in the motion.

While it is not necessary, a voltage / amperage meter between the supply and the track would be helpful here.  With steady motion, these levels should settle to fixed values.  With the flicker you will likely see the current reading move.  It would be interesting to see if it goes up or down.

I'm with the Prof on the idea of going back to a basic DC test.  Because there are three units in this discussion. All are "new" and all are (were) running the factory CV settings, there appears to be a common "fault" between the units.  Running the DC test would pin down the motor, drive load and electrical pick up functions.  If the jerkiness goes away, then you will know the problem is in the decoder/sound system.  Again a meter will be helpful here.

The connection issue will be neutralized in the DC test.  When reconnecting the decoder, you will make sure the connections are "good", short of solder.  If the erratic performance remains, then the CV tuning is in order.  I would not attempt to tune the decoder until you are satisfied with the DC performance.  I think only one of the three needs the test, but one is mandatory.

For this tuning, SD70M2, you have an NW-2 that runs well.  Realizing that these SW-1500's are later version units, I assume that the CV selection possibilities are nearly the same.  I would use the NW-2 values as a guide.  Setting the SW-1500 values the same, unless you can justify a reason for something to be different.  If all the previous tests are good, it would be curious to see if the NW-2 values have an impact on these units.

Just thinking out loud.  Hopefully it helps,

Larry

Jas, I think you're right

Jas, I'm beginning to think that "disappointed" is going to be echoed by a lot of people that buy one of these BLI SW-1500s. Here we already have three of these models that all exhibit the same behavior and problems, so it isn't just one of us that got hold of a stinker.

I ran mine on just DC for a while and it actually seemed to run better than on DCC! Still had the occasional  sound volume drops, but I didn't notice any headlight flickering; no stalling; and the darn thing started, stopped, and ran very smooth at its slowest speed. Also did not experience that annoying full throttle sound when stopping. Go figure! I'm thinking that all these issues are in the Paragon 2 decoder.

I haven't removed the body shell and checked the wiring, but after operating the model on DC and seeing the difference, I'm doubting there are any problems with power pick up. Applying power to each axle/wheel set did not show any pickup problems either.

I've also compared the default CV settings for both my NW-2 and the SW-1500 and they are all identical in the manuals, but there are a few functions that are available for the NW-2 that don't appear to have a equal setting for the SW-1500, such as some way to disable the horn echo/reverb.

I'll experiment with some of the suggestions that have been made regarding adjusting CV's and see if I can cure any of the problems, but I have a feeling it's not going to help.

I'd consider replacing the decoder with a Tsunami, but darn! That would be another $100 added to the almost $200 I've already paid and that should not need to be done!

I'm also going to contact BLI, describe the problems and see if they have any solutions or if I need to return it. Right now, I wish I could take it back to the LHS where I purchased it and get my money back!

SD70M2 keep us informed...

With what you can get from changing CV's.  I've emailed BLI tonight and will hopefully hear back from them in a few days.

I have no way of testing my units on DC, but it sounds promising that your unit performed better in slow speed.  It still hasn't fixed the sound drops which is disappointing.

Hopefully we can come up with a solution between us, and hopefully won't have to send them back or upgrade the decoders and spend more money.

Jas...

It is definitely sounding

Like a bad run of decoder/ sound electronics.  This is where I would remove the shell and swap the cards for a set that I know works.  I know you likely won't have a spare DCC decoder with sound and lights, but if you could that would be the final proof of a bad set of electronics.  The flickering and motor jerkiness sounds like an electrical issue.  The DC run leaves in the lap of the decoder.

Larry