Nope

My way of telling if that attitude is showing up is how a question or comment is answered. If the answer is in such a way that it can be read, "Well you ought to know this already" then you have an elitist attitude showing up. I don't see that regardless of what the question is.

And yes the mag is getting better.

Jack

Examples, please

Joe,

Without getting specific, can you cite some of the most vocal examples?

I think

There is a tough balance that not everyone is going to appreciate, regardless.  For those that want to challenge themselves to be better, I think MRH ends up right in the sweet spot.  For those that are happy with the basics and don't really have the urge to take the hobby further, there are still some good things, but some people just take things in a negative way regardless.  If people are talking about proto-fidelity and doing better and making things as real as possible down to minute detail, some people will just say that is elitist because that's how they take it.  They don't see that other people enjoy the hobby differently and are much more serious about it than they are.  

To me, elitism is only when those that are taking the hobby to the highest level they can make disparaging or negative remarks against those that don't.  It is a two way street, and I've certainly seen both sides played out here on the forums and other forums around.  But in the magazine?  I can't say I've seen that at all.  In fact, I've seen several things that deliberately spell out that it's a hobby we all enjoy in different ways, so celebrate the difference.

I have two main hobbies - model railroading and R/C trucks.  I really enjoy racing my truck at the track a few times a year when my schedule permits, but I'm not at all serious about it.  I spend little time away from the track on R/C.  Some guys at the track are tweaking every little thing on their truck trying to shave off that half second per lap here and there.  Nothing wrong with that, that's how they enjoy their hobby.  I just want to show up, race and go home and put the truck on the shelf and store charge the batteries until next time.  But I'm much more serious about model railroading, but still not nearly as serious as some, at least not yet.  

In the end, we're dealing with people with different viewpoints and different ways to express their viewpoints.  Some viewpoints will always rub some people the wrong way, and it is generally the more extreme viewpoints that rub the most people the wrong way.  MRH is not extreme in any way.  I think it is summed up in the good Prof's salutation - Aim to Improve - and there is nothing wrong with that.

Some examples of comments made on other forums ...

Here's an example we found on another forum ...

And here's another, this one more about MRH going downhill than elitist, but it's still a critical comment:

And another ...

And some more ...

i do not get that impression - today's posts show opposite!

Today I joined the discussion of sound enhancement started some days ago by Mike Confalone.  The thread deals largely with DCC, SurroundTrax, and several other technical topics about which I know very little.  I asked a basic question about such features adapted to DC control - which is all my budget will cover at the moment.  I could have been ignored or even berated for my low-budget, low-tech approach to the topic, but instead, Prof Klyzer spent  a lot of time and effort to analyze my comments and questions and provide a step-by-step response, based on his considerable knowledge of the technology that I have only minimal comprehension of.  He even posted a video demonstrating one of his points.  NOT the mark of an elitist patron group or publication, in my opinion.

(And thanks, again, Prof!)

I sure ain't an elitist!

These posts from a forum....

...who has one of their moderators more or less accuse you (Joe) of inflating your circulation numbers basically accusing you of lying! Perhaps ignoring the comments they make would not be wise, but I certainly would not give too much weight to them either. 

And to answer your question, NO, MRH is not elitist at all.

Ken L.

If you want. ..

Circulation numbers

Yes, Ken, we will deal with the circulation numbers comments on another thread here later. But you're right, the implication is we're cooking our numbers in a not-so-ethical attempt to make RMC look bad.

That's a whole different topic, but as for the elitist thing, I don't take those kind of comments without some self-examination of what we're doing. My going in assumption is there's something we're doing somewhere that is the root of such comments. At the very least, we need to maybe be doing more to make the newer modelers feel welcome here.

Here's another one ...

Here's another one that could give us a clue. Maybe it's when someone comes on here and they express a somewhat contrary opinion that we may at times mercilessly rip into them?

And as for the "free doesn't make it good" comment, he's right on. In staff meetings, I regularly remind the staff that "nobody want's free junk". Job 1 for us is to always make sure our content is good quality material.

I would consider that to mean

I would consider that to mean that MRH is not catering to the train set crowd. The magazine covers a great variety of topics but the majority of them are for the non entry level hobbyist. Also many of the items posted on the web site are much more advanced than what the entry level modeler is capable of. With that being said anyone who shows up and asks a question gets an answer. Sometimes they get asked for clarification because the questions asked are not very clear.

The real plus for the folks that come here is they have the ability to advance and become better modelers than they were before they arrived here. The easiest way to see this is to see how many folks are sharing a technique or tip or link to their own blog or web site. There are many more folks that lurk instead of posting but there are huge numbers of folks that read the different blogs and have spirited discussions regarding the information on them.

I like the magazine the way it is elitist or not. It has also been steadily improving.

hm, Well, I guess the author of that example

never read any of my articles < LOL> .  But seriously, MRH has a variety of articles, from the easy to the hard to reproduce.  This is as it should be.  There are some I agree with, and some I don't - again, as it should be.  And some of the hard articles invoke the WOW factor.  Like WOW, I wish I could do that.

i know in the stuff I try to write, almost anyone should be able to reproduce what I write about with a little care, and effort (and maybe luck getting some items off e-bay?).  And I documented some techniques that did not wok, so they can save the blind alleys.  If a technique I wrote about is not clear, then I want to know about it so I can improve for next time.

I never want to be writing articles that assume a bunch of prior knowledge.  In the most recent article I submitted to Joe, there is a technique I used and did not want to spend 3 or 4 pages describing, so I referenced back to the MRH article by issue and name where I found the technique in the first place!  (Joe, that would be Piepul's Camera Center, a step by step structure that qualified towards an NMRA award.)  I learned the technique from MRH, tried it out and my second attempt qualified for an award.  Isn't that how it's supposed to work?

In the Merit Badge Academy article, I offered the powerpoint presentation I created for others to use (and 2 or 3 people did come to get it), as well as how to go about setting oneself up.  And unless the person has a criminal record, they too can become a counselor.

hmmm ...

... asking this particular crowd is unlikely to answer your questions ... the ones who can best answer are the ones making the comments.  "Elitism" isn't necessarily a "bad" thing, it is when it crosses the line into arrogance that one will start driving others away.

How is MRH doing as a magazine?  To be honest, it has been a very long time since I have read an article from beginning to end ... but, I don't generally read hobby type material unless I feel it has some direct application to what I am doing or it is written by someone whose work I am familiar with and interested in.  There have been a few articles recently, whose subject matter I am very much interested in; however, the writing was so poorly executed, I could not force myself to "dig in" and attempt to absorb it ... just noting its availability should I ever actually "need" the information presented and will "return later" if required.

MRH is still one of the best deals available for a model railroader ... it costs nothing to read but a bit of time.  And the forums are well worth the time of a visit for anyone active in the hobby.  I have a difficult time understanding why someone who is interested in model railroading would refuse to even look at MRH; takes about 10 minutes to flip through the entire mag and who knows what gems may be hidden inside?  I would claim that some of those making the comments Joe provided above are "snobbish" and perhaps a bit jealous?  I don't know, just me probably.

I don't see it - and I'm fairly novice

If MRH were elitist, I think I could tell on those occasions I interact here through the forums.  I am still pretty early in my learning, and have a long way to go on my layout, but generally I get encouragement and really helpful info.  Even when someone suggests I do something another way it has always seemed to be done in a helpful way, not critically.  If there are elitists here, then obviously I am below them too far to hear from them on my posts.  They probably wouldn't be interested in my work anyway.  But I look at the number of readers when I add to my blog and I look at the comments when I ask questions and I am not finding MRH to be elitist.  What I do find is some fantastic work to learn from and some I may try to emulate.  I suppose if I wanted to go inventing things to react to I could complain that my blog doesn't often get comments, but I am not far enough along that I would expect to.  What's to comment on about a couple of levels of helix built?  

Nope, if there is elitism here I am not perceiving it.

-Ed

Maybe we need a new series?

Maybe we need a new article series - modeling for mere mortals? (Yes, I'm being cute, but there is a part of me that's serious about this ...)

There's always one in every crowd...

Joe, the only thing close to an 'elitist' model RR mag was maybe the long defunct Mainline Modeller. And I don't see MRH being close to that level of meticulous published plans and far-out scratchbulding that MM was famous for.

BTW I know the thread you got that quote from, and it was only one person I remember who called MRH 'elitist'.

I don't think one person's opinion on a competitor's forum should be enough to change your magazine's balance and content.

Ugh

Sounds like somebody who sees no value in trying to do better, and doesn't want to see others trying either.  *EDIT* I found the full quote on the other forum, so maybe that wasn't fair:

There's been some full-on MRH bashing going the rounds on the MR forum lately, including Neil Besougloff, editor of MR, posting gripes about comparitive circulation claims including, "MRH has unfairly beaten up on RMC."  With that type of thing happening, no wonder people get emboldened to engage in other nastiness.  For what it's worth, the people on various forum sites who usually complain about MRH also complain about lots of other stuff.  Once you recognize their profiles, you can just roll your eyes and move on.

We've seen it elsewhere too

We've seen the elitist comment elsewhere too.

While I never want to just poo-poo critical comments, I also think I kind of get why we get painted with that brush sometimes.

We're very big on top-notch modeling on here. Personally it doesn't matter to me if it's freelance, proto-freelance, or strict prototype, good modeling is good modeling. A part of me misses the Gorre & Daphetid and misses the V&O, and also loves to follow layouts like Tony-the-K's NKP.

But because we love to parade good modeling a lot on here, those who aren't in that same camp, either because they're too new, or because they don't feel they can ever achieve that kind of modeling, they label us as "elitist" because we don't make as big a deal about more ordinary modeling as well.

It's ironic, because I would consider MR as a magazine that parades a lot more ordinary modeling these days - and yet what do they get accused of? Dumbing down their content ... and being a magazine that's out of touch with the more serious modeler.

Seems you can't have it both ways ... and as they say, you can't please all of the people all of the time, etc.

Focusing on out west?

Rob:

The mostly modeling out west comment is interesting because many of our articles have been of eastern roads. The Allagash bash, for example, is anything but a western road.

When was the last SP, WP, BN, ATSF, or UP article we've done ... it's been a while.

Sometimes people get an idea in their head and you just can't shake it with the facts, no matter how hard you try.

As for the unfair and misleading circulation numbers comment, we will deal with that on another thread later on.

Rob Spangler has shed a bit of light on the subject ...

This is a very accurate observation ... an editor using his position and influence in an attempt to incite a negative attitude toward a competitor.  I suspect that his arguments about the "accounting" of subscribers is a direct result of his seeing the writing on the wall ... MRH's readership base is GROWING and eventually will overtake MR as the #1 model railroad hobbyist magazine ... I doubt that there is anything MR can actually do to prevent that, so he is getting his arguments concerning the numbers out now ....

"modeling for mere mortals"/elitism

Dear Joe,

RE "...modeling for mere mortals..."

Thoughts:

- Um, was that not one of the driving forces behind the "$500 layout" contests?
(Offshoot: can we draw any conclusions about the success/reception of the "$500 layout" series?)

- Wasn't there an "upgrade a Blue Box Ath" article recently in MRH which got significant poor response from some of the MRH-reader rank-n-file, with alegations that it was "too low spec for contemporary modelling approaches/specs"?

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh-2014-01-jan/improving-athearn-sd45

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

"...count no-one's rivets but one's own,
and if specifically requested by a fellow modeller to count their rivets,
proceed cautiously with an approach of positive encouragement..."

PS Might be worth keeping in mind that some of the external comments may relate to percieved elitism within the forum, as opposed to the content of MRH magazine. That they (the magazine-per-month and the online forum) are percieved as one-and-the-same is interesting, but it also makes assessing and managing any required "fixes" that little more challenging...

My opinion of MRH

When I first started reading MRH, I eagerly devoured every magazine.  Articles such as the in-depth, technical discussion of curve radius as it relates to car length were right up my alley, and I fell in love.  I came to the forum and found more like-minded modelers who were tired of the "just buy this and it will work" mentality.  I also liked the fact that I didn't see those few big names over and over in every article, talking about the latest and greatest thing on their giant fantasy layouts.

Fast forward to today..

I still read MRH eagerly, but I don't get as much out of it as I used to.  I think there are a few things going on.  One is that I've learned a lot over the years, and I've focused on a smaller window in time and space, so fewer things really capture my interest they way they used to.  Anther is that, with all the back issues on line, MRH cannot simply re-hash old content the way other publications sometimes seem to.  There are only so many technical, general interest subjects out there, and once you've covered them, you're kinda stuck doing something different.  Finally, I am starting to see the same names and the same layouts repeatedly, and it leaves me wanting something fresh.  Maybe it's just that I've been here long enough to start recognizing names and faces, and maybe it's that you can't publish what you don't have, so if one guy submits 50 articles a month, he's more likely to be published multiple times.

I also think MRH has moved a little more toward layout tours.  I know a lot of people love them, but they rarely do anything for me.  I think I got fed up with them as a teen, when what I really wanted to know about a layout was where that beautiful locomotive came from and how the guy kitbashed it, and instead what I got was a 50-page fictional back story on his railroad.  So now, even when they might have something to offer, I find myself bypassing layout tour type articles.  Unfair, perhaps, but that's just me.

On the other hand, I like the MRH forum more than ever.  I've backed off a little, but that's a reflection of my activity in the hobby at large, not of MRH specifically.  I find the forum to be full of inspiration, examples of every kind of modeling from basic to brilliant, and I cannot say enough good things about it.

So, is MRH elitist?  I don't think so, or at least no more so that any other specialist hobby publication.  There are things I would change about it, but I am not the only consumer, and I doubt that there are enough people with exactly my taste to make my fantasy perfect magazine happen.  I think MRH has the best general mix of any model railroad magazine in the last two decades, and the growing readership suggests I am not alone in that opinion.

Elitism is a tough one to combat

And frankly Joe, you'll loose a lot of sleep trying to do so.  Most folks here know I spend my non-MRH time hanging out on The Railwire, and we get a lot of "elitism" thrown at us there too.  It's generally because we're a tough crowd of really knowledgeable folks, and when people ask for help, or post about their modeling challenges we run off all the information we can to help them.

Same is true here IMHO, and it can be tough for some people to get that vibe - especially electronically.  As to articles - there's as much usable content for me in a single issue  of MRH as all the hard copies I still subscribe to added up each month.  You guys have the flexibility to present a lot of material, and cover a lot of scale simultaneously.

If you do change anyhting, perhaps a quartetly call for article telling us what tyoe of stuff you want sent in would be a start.  You keep telling us you are only as good as the submissions you get, but we don't really know what you got until it comes out in "print."

Pushing the Envelope

rubs some as elitist. You have no requirements to join the forum, or to download and read the mag, so that's not being elitist. Perhaps other publications are bemoaning their lack of content that appeals to more than a beginning modeler.

I will say though I read the mag less than in the past, partially because of less content, and partially because some, although highly interesting, are not terribly practical for an "average" modeler. The July cover story is a great example of a new technique that pushes backdrop techniques to a new level, but is a bit difficult to replicate given time and equipment constraints. I used to feel that way about MR articles.

I think you are on the right track, so I wouldn't lose sleep over being "elitist." If you are, you certainly aren't snobby about it.