unless...

maybe the brake was being employed.... ?

Thanks for sharing your Demo!

Not Bill.

Ken's sound, not mine

OOPS!

Duh!

Brief responses

The brake was indeed being employed.  In fact, the entire video (minus the startup at the beginning) was shot with the throttle set at around 20% and unchanged.  Every movement of the engine, and every change of the engine RPM, was a result of the brake and reverse switch alone.

Personally, I feel that the engine has a bit too much momentum for a light engine, but I haven't bothered to change it yet.  As for the sync, try imagining that there's a train behind the engine.  Prototypically, the engine should rev up long before the train starts to move.  Since I was stopping with the brake, the engine should keep revving.  And, because I did not reduce the throttle, the engine kept revving higher, trying to move against the brake.

In other words, it's actually far more prototypical in my opinion.  There are definitely some tweaks to be made (especially the momentum) but I can see that they are headed in the right direction.  Ironically, it might annoy some folks who are more used to the current crop of sound decoders than to the real thing.  There is a different operating mode which is more conventional, but for this video I was trying the new mode out.

The prime mover sounds decent to me.  If you've ever stood next to an SD40-2, especially one under load, you hear more turbo than anything.  Since this is the turbocharged 645 sound file, that seems reasonable to me.  I am looking forward to hearing the non-turbo 645 and 567 versions, as well as the 710 and eventually GE versions.

Nelson, manual notching is allowed, but I did not try it.  I believe there is a way to set the notch rate relative to speed step, but again I have not tried it yet.  I just got the decoder installed yesterday, and spent more time working out some of the more obnoxious bugs and idiosyncrasies than on playing with the sound details.

I will be testing this more over the next couple weeks.  I can't promise any more videos (maybe) but I do hope to see something available in the near future.  I will be playing with the momentum settings and with different operating modes to see how it sounds.  Also, I apologize for the poor video and audio quality.  It was rather dark where I was shooting, and my camera decided to pick up lots of ambient noise.  It definitely sounds better in person.

Thanks!

Other prime movers

Ken,

Where can I take a listen to the other sound files...non-turbo 645 and 567? Are they on the TCS site?

Mike Confalone

EQ section?

Dear Ken,

Is there any form of EQ onboard available?

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

I'm glad you're interested

Not only do you not have to work around to get them, you have to learn to work with them.  As an engineer, it feels intuitive to me, but it took me a few minutes to understand that I really did have to use the brake, and that it's more than just a sound effect.  As you said, very cool!

I need to test some of the other operating modes - brakes might not be needed for them, and I'm sure there are folks who would rather not HAVE to use the brakes.  It could make consisting with other decoders a bear, too.

I was shocked when they asked me to beta test the decoder.  I started talking to them about the steam decoders, and when they found out I'm an engineer, they started picking my brain.  I may not be the best DCC expert out there, but I think I can give it a fair model/prototype comparison.  I've also got my best friend and fellow engineer testing it with me.  As soon as we heard it start up, we knew we had something special, and it has continued to impress us.  It's obviously not perfect yet, but I believe it will be pretty darn close.

I have no idea who the other beta testers are.  It wouldn't hurt to contact TCS and make the suggestion, though.  J.D. is understandably eager to get this right, and I'm sure he'd welcome the chance to talk to an expert in the field and get some additional feedback.  Worst he can say is "no thanks," right?

The other sound files have not been released at this point.  The turbo 645 is the only one available at the moment.  I suspect that there will be additional rounds of testing as they record and fine-tune other sounds.

Not that I know of.  It's something I've heard Rick Bell ask for as well.  I suggest contacting TCS and requesting it, and ideally (if you're willing & able) offering to help develop and implement one.  They seem very open to suggestions and assistance from those who know what they're talking about.

EQ answer

I talked to J.D. at TCS, and here's his response:  "Making an EQ is on our to do list, but not at the top of our priorities"

So it is something which might come down the line eventually.  Personally, I feel that the sound is good enough as-is that it doesn't need an EQ for most purposes.  I will admit that being able to adjust things to suit specific installations would be a plus, but in all honesty, I like things simple.  Plug it in and it works, and that's how the WOWSound decoders seem to be for me.  They may not be 100% perfect sound, but they're good enough to satisfy me without the need for additional tweaking.

Conflicted, but accepted...

Dear Ken,

Thanks for taking the time and effort to hunt down the confirmation. It is greatly appreciated.

Honesty compels me to admit however, the answer leaves me conflicted...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Sounds ...

... like an airplane is what my daughter claimed ... I think she is right.

edit:  A real train just passed by ... "That is what a train sounds like, daddy!" ....  heh

And then she added, "Your train will sound like that won't it?"

"I hope so ..."  Pressure is on .... :/

On EQ and turbochargers

Just to be clear, only the one quoted sentence is from TCS.  The rest of my post is my own opinion.  I understand that an EQ is possible, and I would assume that it will be in the cards eventually - there are plenty of people asking for one.  However, I suspect that the main goal at the moment is just getting a quality product to market.  If it satisfies 95% of the people who hear it, then it's what I would call a success.

Funny, my wife said something very similar this morning, listening to the engine running in a circle on our dining room table.  I can't deny that it has a lot of turbo whine, but then again, so does the prototype.  Up close and personal with the decoder, I do hear the prime mover underneath the turbo, but it's not dominant.  If you've ever been around a turbocharged 645 under load, you'll understand that the turbo IS quire prominent.

What I think will be interesting is to hear the FDL-16 if/when it comes out.  That prime mover has an impressive amount of low end, so I'll be curious to see how the TCS version sounds.

"Low End", and Prime-mover/turbo balance

Striking a balance

Would an EQ be better than none?  Absolutely.

Would it delay the release of the decoder?  Almost certainly.

Is the delay worth the improvement?  That's debatable, and probably different for each of us.  It seems to me that TCS has decided to get something out there.  People have been asking for a diesel sound decoder from them ever since they heard the first rumors of a sound decoder.  The fact that it doesn't have an EQ, and that it won't live up to it's full potential right away, probably won't bother the majority of people.

I have a couple Tsunamis, and I've never had the motivation to tackle adjusting the EQ.  Without a computer interface, the prospect is daunting.  Even with one, I really wouldn't know where to start, and I don't want to take the time right now to learn enough to do a good job of it.  So for me, an EQ is not the most useful feature.  I understand that it can have a major impact on the sound -no denying that- but if I'm not going to use it, it doesn't really matter.

On the subject of turbo whine:  I had a pair of SD40-2s today (my favorite diesel locomotives!), and I took the time to listen to them closely.  My first impression, from inside the cab, was that the turbo is EXTREMELY prominent.  However, when I stuck my head out the window, I could make out a little bit of the prime mover.  Depending on the load and exactly where I chose to listen, I heard more or less turbo whine.  So maybe the decoder could stand a little less turbo - I'll bring it up with TCS.  However, I still say that it's not too far off the mark, and it might well depend on the exact locomotive.  Yes, it sounds like a jet engine, but that's fairly prototypical.

Well ...

... I am sure that a locomotive sounds different from inside the cab as opposed to alongside the tracks.  Sound propagation is very much dependent upon frequency (as well as a host of other factors).  While I was watching the video, I "saw" a locomotive and I "heard" a locomotive; but my daughter who was not watching, "heard" what sounded to her like a jet engine ... and when she came over to see what I was watching, expected to see an airport terminal (and took her a moment to realize that it was a locomotive).  So, I replayed it, this time with my eyes closed.  The whistle and bell were definitely train, but the rest of the sound DID sound more like I was near a tarmac rather than a train track.

I do recall the whine of the turbines, but I distinctly remember the thundering bass of the prime mover as well ... I don't recall a situation where the turbo whine drowned out the rumble of the prime mover as it seems to do in this video.  Perhaps a difference in being alongside the track as opposed to in the cab?

In the end, the goal is to make it sound as we "think" it should sound.  I would like for my daughter in the next room to "know" that I am running a train and not a jet engine.  Equalization would be a big help in that (or the ability to control the volume of each of the major pieces, assuming they are recorded on separate channels).

And then we get into speakers and speaker placement ... something I am currently struggling with on my O-scale SW9 locomotive.

One man's opinion

I know I've said it before, but I want to make sure I say this explicitly.  I am NOT affiliated with TCS in any way, other than being a happy customer who was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time to be invited to be a beta tester.  I have expressed a generally favorable opinion of the decoder so far, and of the logic behind certain decisions, and that opinion is based solely on my experience as an engineer and what I hear when I run this model.

If I ever come across as argumentative, I apologize as I do not mean to be.  I appreciate your opinions, and I have been passing them on to TCS.  In fact, they're probably sick of hearing from me by now.  So please feel free to share your opinions, well reasoned or otherwise.  If you're a potential customer, then your opinion matters!  And also, please, please remember that if I offend or annoy you in any way, that's just me, and NOT TCS.

Volume configurations

Ken, 

What different sounds do you have access to changing the volume on? I assume that horn, bell, and prime mover are in there - how many others things are adjustable? 

I'm thinking that if the turbo whine is a separate sound from the prime mover, it's volume could be adjusted down. 

I don't know

I'm not sure, Jeff.  Next time I get a chance to play with it, I'll check and see.  I've also e-mailed TCS to ask about the possibility of turning down the turbo relative to the prime mover.

"fix at source" vs "fix in mix"

Dear Ken, Jeff,

Ken, yes, "fix at source" is one solution...

Although that you, from the respected position of someone who runs them daily, have already identified that it "sounds right as is",

suggests to me that messing with the raw sound files would be a massive (and permanent) "fix"which will not provide a universal solution for all potential users.

That everyone apart from Ken is hearing a severely impaired YouTube version of whatever the decoder of capable of does not help.

Jeff, I like where your head's at, adjusting volumes would "fix it in the mix", and is entirely user adjustable
(IE each users recollections and EARS are different,
which means the "mix" of both individual noisemaker levels and frequency distribution which "seems right" to any given modeller will end up being different).

Problem, turbos are generally powered off the exhaust,
(with EMDs using as aux power takeoff to avoid classic GE "turbo lag" IIRC?),

which means its virtually impossible to location record all audible variations of a typical turbo-in-operation in isolation acoustically, the prime mover needs to be providing adequate exhaust (usually at high noise/revs) to do so.

Ergo unless the turbo found was _scratchbuilt_ sonically, and this was available as an isolated sound, 
the likelihood of being able to discretely "turn down the turbo" relative to the prime mover is very low.

So, how can we "fix it in the mix"?
(IE allow every modeller to create their own custom "perfect mix" without having to permanently mess with the raw sound files?)

Hint: the answer has already been noted in this thread,
And TCS's leading competition in this market sector, their lack of frequency range notwithstanding, can do it...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

I still want to hook a sound decoder up to a subwoofer....

I've got at least one or two sound decoders that made plenty of noise - they just wouldn't make the engine move. I've also got a set of powered computer speakers that include a subwoofer. 

I often wonder if I hooked the two together somehow, would I get that wonderful bass "thrum, thrum, thrum" that I can hear from a mile or so off, long before I can ever see a locomotive? 

Only a few of my loki's are turbo'd anyway... 

Now... I have been told it ought to be possible, but that I need to have some sort of isolation gadget to make sure that the power from the subwoofer doesn't get fed back and blow the decoder. 

Anyone done this? Anyone know what that particular gadget/circuit I've been told is needed is? 

Yes, very do-able...

Dear Jeff,

Certainly, this is do-able. reccomend a read-back thru Lance Mindheim's blogs,
as he's gone thru the changes previously.

http://www.lancemindheim.com/2011_blogs.htm
/> (Start from Sept 10th entry, and follow the thread)

http://www.lancemindheim.com/2012_blogs.htm
/> (April 7th entry)

http://www.lancemindheim.com/headphone_sound.htm

Alternatively, use MRH Search for "Tsunami headphone"

In terms of the raw circuit, there are 2 primary approaches:

Option 1 - use a 8Ohm<> 1KOhm transformer
(available from RadioShack and similar, this is what Lance used)

Option 2 - Use a Potentiometer + a resistor or 2 to form a voltage-divider "audio pad"
(in audio terms, a "pad" is a circuit which drops the level of a signal by a given dBu ammount)

Both approaches were previously written-up and supported by SoundTraxx,
but AFAIK only the Pot version is still available as "Tech Note #11"

http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals/Tech_note%2011.pdf

I have built a version of this circuit into a cute little jiffy box, 

(spring-loaded bare-wire "speaker output" feeds into the top,
1/4" TRS jack, wired to feed the mono decoder signal to both L and R channels, at the bottom,
just a pot and a resistor on a piece of perf-board in the middle.

< AUD$5 all up in actual components and wire,
if you don't need the natty little box and pro-level connectors)

and used it for testing all manner of devices,
the only critical element is that the Decoder Under Test can support/feed an 8-ohm speaker or "load".

Oh, and before you deploy any of the techniques above, Turn The Master Volume CV DOWN!
(You have been Warned!)

If you check Lance's "undertable-sound journey" blog threads,
(using the "transformer-based" interface option),

you'll note that to get a usable signal/noise ratio without added distortion,
he ended up running a Master Volume CV value of < 10 on his TSUs.

Take it from someone who's already walked the path, and well-documented the process...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

The prime mover sounds

Absolutely agree

I cannot agree more.  Unfortunately, I do not have the tools or the skill to record a video which does the decoder justice.  In person, there is no question in my mind that this is the most realistic diesel decoder I have ever heard in any scale.

I have also been talking to TCS about ways to make it even more prototypical, in both sound and operation.  I cannot wait to see how the final product turns out.

Had a GREAT Conversation with Norm at TCS

In Cleveland I got to check out the WOW 645 Diesel Decoder first hand. I was VERY impressed and in many ways it was like hearing a ghost call my name.

My only point of improvement was that it seemed to be missing the 8th notch under heavy load which sounds mostly like thunderous exhaust and fan whine. See 1:54 in the following video

Here is a video of my test of taking the decoder right into the 8th notch from idle.

Demonstrating this to Norm, I sent him the video for reference. I think they have the Tiger by the tail on really good EMD prime mover sound.

However, NO one has gotten the other half of how a loco sounds correct and that is the Dynamic brake. A dynamic brake should have 0-8 notches and transitions too. TCS hasn't gotten to the point of implementing the Dynamic brake yet but I sure hope they take that there are 0-8 notches to the dynamic brake into account. If they do, they'll have the best EMD sound decoder on the market.

Chris