Bill Fornshell

 

I have been working on several Keystone Shay Kits, looking for alternative ways to power this static model using as few or none of the parts from the old and long out of production NWSL Power conversion kits. (More on this at a later date)

 

As a substitute for the Keystone Shay line shaft parts I searched my extra parts from a bunch of MDC Shay kits that I have.  I had bought some failed MDC kits builds and broken RTR MDC Shay models that ended up on ebay real cheap or were sold at one of the local train shows I attend. Someone had tried to build them and failed or finished a model that no longer ran and decided to sell them for parts.  I found a lot of wheel sets (save that thought)  and I put them in a zip lock bag and sat them aside.  

 

It seemed that many of these MDC Shay models were now being sold "for parts only" when their life ended because of drive line problems with the gear tower and split gears.  I fixed a few of these by replacing the gears with the NWSL kits.  I have a modification for the gear tower problems that make them work smooth and quite.  

 

Back to the bag of wheel sets.  I use a lot of the NWSL Stanton Drives.  They install very easy, they come with all wheel electrical contacts installed on both the power trucks and the dummy trucks. If you use track current this helps a lot and they convert to Radio Control with Battery Power very easy.

 

Once in awhile I get an idea that seems to be a stroke of genius, those times remind me of something my mother used to say, you are so bright I think I will call you son.  So much for that bit of humor.  

 

To solve a lot of problems when building the MDC Shay kits I thought, If I just had a way to put a small electric motor in the Shay truck(s) (enter the Stanton Drive) I could eliminate drive line problems and free up a lot of extra space for a Radio Control Receiver and Battery or DCC and a speaker, if thats your thing.  This would get rid of the stock motor, gear tower, drive shafts and most if not all of the noise these models make when running.  I would have no more split gear problems or other problems associated with the drive system

 

My idea was a pair of Stanton Drives made using the MDC Shay Wheel Sets.  Use the gear face wheels on one side and the plan wheels on the other side so the line shafts will still work.  

 

I phoned Dave at NWSL and asked him if that was possible.  After a short conversation he said, YES, we can do that.  Just send me the wheels and give me a few days.  I mailed the wheels the next day and received the new Stanton Drives with MDC Shay wheels installed on them this past Friday.

 

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I first tried to use one of my MDC Shay chassis but I was going to have to alter it a lot.  After looking at the chassis a while I decided to just make a completely new chassis.  I made a couple of different chassis till I got one that worked.

 

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Test Fit, photo-op.

 

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Since the NWSL "Shay" Drives were a bit longer then the ones that come with the MDC Shay Kits I had to modify the MDC side frames to fit the Stanton "Shay" Drives.

 

These pictures show the difference in length between the MDC Truck and The Stanton "SHAY" Drive:

 

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This required the side frames be lengthen a bit, sort of a cut and paste job, to add the necessary length.  

 

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Modified Side Frames. 

 

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Test Fit, photo-op.

 

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Working on a way to attach the side frames to the Stanton Drives.  Then I need to make the line shafts a bit longer then the stock version.  

 

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Mounting The Shay 3-Cylinder Steam Engine.

 

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I am now ready to complete the line shafts and do a chassis test run.

 

Yet another Test Fit, Photo-op. 

 

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Bottom View.

 

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Reply 0
Fast Tracks

Excellent!

I'll be watching this thread!  Looks great so far.

Tim Warris

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Reply 0
Geared

Ouitstanding

Outstanding work and another way to keep these engines running. Well done. I'll be watching this thread for sure.

Roy

Geared is the way to tight radii and steep grades. Ghost River Rwy. "The Wet Coast Loggers"

 

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

sideshaft sync

Dear Bill, You're probably well ahead of me here, but with 2x motors and no guaranteed sync, any thoughts about how to get the sideshaft not to "skip teeth" or twist itself apart in operation? The stock MDC shay mech has similar issues, which can be traced to design and poor-assembly slop in the drivetrain (eliminate the slop, and correctly align the wheel<>sideshaft bevels, and all will be well), but with 2 completely independent motors/geartrains, some alternative/"creative" engineering may be called for... Looking forward to seeing more... Happy Modelling, Aim to Improve, Prof Klyzlr
Reply 0
s_brown

Drive line sync

I wonder if it might be prudent not to try and sync the drive lines?

Would it not make more sense to make one of the connecting shafts a slip shaft rather than driving as effectively these shafts only now transmit motion to the side mechanism rather than transfering drive. Kinda the reverse of what would happen 1:1

My 2c

Simon

Simon
Melbourne Australia
Modeling the UP - steam to diesel 

Reply 0
Bill Fornshell

MDC Shay Kit Build - Powered by a Modified NWSL Stanton Drive -

 Thanks to those that took the time to reply.

 

Tim:

 

Thanks for your comment.

 

Prof:

 

Only one of the Stanton Drives has a motor, the other one is a Dummy drive.  

 

Only the line shafts from one truck turn the crankshaft on the 2-cylinder motor.  The other one looks like it does but the inter shaft is round and just spines.  Also I only use one gear on each line shaft.  The movement is cosmetic, the movement only makes it look like it is doing something.  One gear on each line shaft is much easier to align to the bevel gear on the wheel then two gears and they don't really show.  

 

I will show some pictures of what this looks like when I get to that part.

 

Simon:

 

Slip shaft may be a good way to describe what is happening.   

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

proto VS model shay mechs

Dear Simon, In the original MDC drive, the sideshaft was not part of the actual electric-motor driveline. It's sole function, apart from looking gorgeous, was to transmit motion from the axles to the "steam engine" crankshaft. I agree that this is different to the prototype, (and to the B'mann Class C shay models), but it is a proven working model shay system which is commonly disgarded as worthless due to the aforementioned excess mech tolerances/"slop" (both in design and poor assembly). Many modellers have tried removing all but one of the sideshaft bevels on stock MDC shay drives, on the theory that with only one point-of-drive, no axle<>axle lockups can occur. 2 problems commonly result: - the truck with only 1 gear is forced to skew the sideframe ralative to the central truck casting, thus clicking and "loosing sideshaft drive". - without the bevel gears to keep the sidedshaft in fore/aft position, the truck with no bevels finds it's sideshaft sliding fore/aft on curves, taking the sideshaft expasion/contraction instead of the uni-sleeve-uni joints. (NB that the HOn30 Joe Works shay actually uses this technique deliberately, thus avoiding needing to engineer working sleeve-joints into the sideshaft line) In development, some modellers have evolved the above, rounding off 3 of the 4 sideshaft bevel gears, so they are a "sloppy fit" to the wheel bevels. The "excess" bevels ensure the sideshaft components stay where they should fore/aft during cornering, and the equal "spacer" pressure om both axles from the sideshaft ensure the sideshaft stays parallel to the central truck casting/perpendicular to the axles, at the appropriate distance. Of course, there are also some model loco mech-techs who apply basic patience and "do it right, do it once, enjoy the results" methodology and thus achieve smooth 1-sleeper-per-minute crawlability with the stock MDC mech, with all bevel gears in place... Horses for courses,... Happy Modelling, Aim to Improve, Prof Klyzlr PS for a well-written rundown on the stock MDC Shay mech and many of the commonm aftermarket and "old hand" tweaks, the Jeff Johnston "MDC Shay book" by Osorail is highly reccomended...
Reply 0
Benny

...

It seems to me the solution would be to put a small second animation only motor [pager type] on the drive line, securing the drive shaft ends at either truck in a slip sleeve.  Thus, you'd see the shaft turn, but it wouldn't actually turn the wheels at all, and the wheels wouldn't turn the gears at all either. 

That being said, I don't know where the second motor could be hidden nor how it would tie into the driveshaft.

--------------------------------------------------------

Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

Reply 0
Bill Fornshell

MDC Shay Kit Build - Powered by a Modified NWSL Stanton Drive -

Continued thanks for all the tips and comments.

I have had a copy of the Jeff Johnston "MDC Shay book" and used it a lot when I first starting building the Shay kits. They sell on ebay from time to time and often for much more then I would pay.  If you look for it and don't like the price check your local library and see if they can get you a copy using the Inter-library loan program.  I also have collected many articles from web sites and magazines about building them. OSO should bring the book back on a DVD.

Benny:

I actually have a couple of ideas for something like your comment. I thought about using a small motor to move the line shafts since I have space.  Using the Stanton Drives leaves the space where the gear tower would have been available for a small motor.  I even have several small motors that might work. I have a few parts to round up and I might try it.

I installed the line shafts on the rear truck and they roll reasonability smooth.  I will be working on the front later today and then connect the complete drive line and see how that works.

Reply 0
Benny

...

If you were able to get the power to transfer smoothly from the geared wheels, of course, then all your issues are gone.

--------------------------------------------------------

Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

Reply 0
Bill Fornshell

MDC Shay Kit Build - Powered by a Modified NWSL Stanton Drive -

Hi Benny,

Yes, but it is still an interesting idea.  Maybe something for a long holiday weekend whenever the next one comes around.

Reply 0
leestepr

Always interested in hearing about Stanton drives in the field

Looking forward to hearing more about this project as I'm always interested to hear about Stanton drives out in the field--how they are being used, how they perform, how to adapt them to DCC. I have a couple of repowering projects that will use Stanton drives and I am curious about how they work out.

Steve Lee

Up Dunes Junction

Reply 0
Logger01

MDC Shay Kits

I have built and or rebuilt six Shay kits (two and three truck models). All are still running with four still in my collection. All were originally "carefully" assembled with stock parts (often as with your experience from several "scrapped" kits), and operated for several years with few problems. When I started noticing some problems with one loc, I decided (given the history of these locs) that it was time for a general rebuild and updated all with NWSL parts. I also swapped out the original motors for smaller 7 pole motors without flywheels to allow more space for decoders. The MDC kits with stock parts may not look as good as the new Botchmann units, but I continue to run them because they out pull the B'mann's (I have three) better than two to one. And if you put a little more effort into the build they can be beautiful.

For some inspiration and additional guidance check out René Vink's work at: http://www.modelrailroading.nl/collection/index.html

Ken K

gSkidder.GIF 

Reply 0
Berk

Glueing the side frames

Sir, what glue did you use to modify the sideframes? I have tried a few that failed quickly.

Thank you.

Mike

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

More info required...

Dear Mike,

Were you trying to glue continuous re-inforcing members to the existing sideframe parts,

or were you literally trying to "end-to-end" glue sodeframe members together?

Also, what was the specific material/source-of-donor-sideframe you were trying to glue together?
(some manufacturer's plastics are more easily "glue-able" than others).

Loktite 770 polyolefin primer + ACC has worked for me in "gluing slippery-engineering-plastics to other things" missions, but the addition of continuous re-inforcing members
(like the white styrene parts shown in the OP's sideframe assemblies) 

or inserted wire/pin reinforcing interlocks,

are key to assembling a strong unit out of component parts, 
particularly in a mechanically-demanding application such as the sideshaft-side of a shay.
(If the sideframe is not actually needed to hold/retain/support axle-ends, functional driveshafts, or other structural components, then you can get away with  fragile "comes along for looks" sideframe assemblies...)

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Reply 0
Bill Fornshell

MDC Shay Build - Adding Radio Control w/Battery Power to the mix

 

I have been installing the Radio Control Receiver and Battery today.  I am using the Stanton S-CAB RC System and a Team Lois small Battery.  

 

http://www.s-cab.com/

 

The wires make it look a bit busy but most of the extra will get trimmed away and hidden by the time I am finished. The RC gear is held to each other using some very thin very strong double sided tape.

 

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Side view looking into the Cab.  Everything you see looking into the Cab will get painted a dark color.  Their will also be a couple of crew members sitting in the cab which will block the end of the battery from view.

Their will be a door between the Cab and Tender.

 

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View with the Tender.  The top where the battery shows will get covered with a fake coal or wood load.

 

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Yet another PhotoOp.

 

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Reply 0
Bill Fornshell

MDC Shay Kit Build - Powered by a Modified NWSL Stanton Drive -

 

Front Head Light
 
Spent some time tonight and wired the front headlight. The Headlight Housing was robbed from a Keystone Shay Kit.  
 
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A better picture of the Headlight Housing that came from a Keystone Shay Kit.  I am using a Golden White SML (tiny LED) and a 1000 Ohm Resistor all from Richmond Controls.
 
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Reply 0
Bill Fornshell

MDC Shay Build - Adding Radio Control w/Battery Power to the mix

 

I made the wiring harness for the RC Receiver this evening.  The color code for the wires are, red and black to and from the battery, gray and orange to and from the motor, yellow and white for the lights with blue as the common wire.  The blue and white are for the front headlight and the blue and yellow are for the rear light.

 

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This is a static test of the RC System.  The wheels on the Stanton/Shay Drive are going forward but you can't tell.  Since it is running forward the front headlight is on. 

 

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Reply 0
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