My Vision ...

A narrow gage railroad set in the Rocky Mountains during the late 19^th century.  Jenny couplers are in use; the automobile is still to come.  The railroad will represent a small shortline serving a mining industry.

I envision a small town with a few “industries” including stock loading facilities, a team track (coal, lumber, general merchandise), small passenger depot and freight house.  The mining industry could be represented by a mill, where the concentrated ore will be loaded into box cars for transportation to the town.

The track plan should be ‘simple’ with emphasis on scenery rail fanning; however, some operations should be available for the fun of it.  It must include the ability to allow for continuous running.

A free-standing ‘island’ (5’ x 10’) with the town on one side and the mine on the other, joined by (relatively) hidden curves would be ideal as it would be smaller and easier to move.  However, I am not opposed to an around the walls type layout; which certainly offers more in terms of opportunity.*

*I suppose what I am trying to say here, is that I'd prefer a smaller, more manageable project over a space filling empire ... so that is where I would like to focus the effort; however, if a suitable track plan can not be developed, then I'd consider going with the much larger around the walls design.

Next up: Givens & Druthers

Givens & Druthers ...

Givens:

- Available space.  10’ x 16’ room.  3’ door along a long wall in a corner; 8’ of windows along short wall on other end of room from the door.  (See next post for a sketch of the room.)

- Scale: On30 (of course).

- Minimum radius: 18” (equipment limitation).

- Minimum frog: No. 4.

- Sectional construction comprising of ‘main scenes’ connected by ‘filler’ sections to allow easy removal and possible reuse in another space (I WILL be moving in the not so distant future).

-  Continuous running option.

Druthers:

- Include a small town with a few ‘industries’ including live stock facilities, team track, depot and freight house.

- Include a stamp mill where concentrated ore is bagged and loaded into box cars; with a nearby ‘store’ to receive mining related supplies and equipment.

- Single track mainline.

- Handlaid track.

- 30” radius visible curves.

- No. 6 minimum frog.

- No ‘duck unders’.

Next up: Available Space

Available Space ...

Here is a simple drawing showing the room that is available for the railroad.  The 'box' in the center would be the 5' x 10' foot print of an 'island' type railroad.  For what it is worth, the door to the room is generally open, against the right hand wall.

Dear Dave, Get a copy of Iain

You mean this one? scroll

You mean this one?

scroll right down its called Blue Hills and yonder

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-22106725251441/12419spread.pdf

Hi Prof!

I actually have that book with me here in Sri Lanka!  

In fact, it is sitting on the table beside me, opened to page 22 "Mount Galena Mines Railroad" ... who'd have thought!  

It is a good plan, but I've rejected it (perhaps prematurely) on account of:

1) it doesn't offer continuous running; and 

2) the vertical clearances/separation become more challenging with a larger scale.

Perhaps by stretching it out and adding a pair of stacked return loops ... hmmm.

Thank you for the suggestion.  

hobbes ...

Have not seen that one (and don't have the book).  Lots of ideas there, although I'm not certain I want to model two towns ...  

Thank you for the link, will study it for further inspiration.  

Blue Hills and Yonder =/= what was thought of

Dear Phil,

No, not the one I was thinking of, but still an interesting plan non-the-less!

The one I was thinking of was an L-shape, formed from a curvy-cut 4x8...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Dear Dave, I'm away from my

Dear Dave,

I'm away from my Library at the moment, but yes, "Mt Galena" was the one I was thinking of...

Totally accept that as shown, cut from a 4x8, the grades and clearances might be tight for On30. That said, the overall schematic and op-scheme sounded like a pretty good fit to your G&D list. Some stretching and grade/seperation tweaking, and I can see it being a fairly effective On30 plan.

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

5 x 10 vs Around the Walls

Hi Dave, congradulations on making the swap. I did what you proposed with using a 5 x 10 in the center of the room. My plan was an HO city layout that when looking along city street sight lines, you would just see city as no sight line would extend off the far edge. I dropped it and broke it up into an around the walls with a pennisula as it simply ate up the room space.

On the other hand if you really want to go that route here is another Ian Rice plan - the Lilliput Logger. I think it was a 5 x 10 also although it could have been a bit smaller. It consisted of a loop with an inside branch that went up and around to the back side to a log load site. I would put the mine there.

Front side had a small water front with a bit of water type industry I think and a really small saw mill and a small town. Higher up the ridge which split the layout down the center was a mine. Make that the mill.

The layout was done at least once in On30 by a guy in England who died a few years back. He had his own forum web site and was very much into the logging scene on his RR's. His comment was that it didn't take much to make it usable for On30 even if it was designed for HO. It would also be really easy to split this plan down the center and put it against the walls and you have expansion space available for later.

My other thought is instead of planning to rip it up, start with a section and make the majority of your loop HO flex track. Then you won't lose hours of hand laid track later. You can use the flex track and a few used cheap turnouts to play and test ideas before you really get to the next section.

Jack

Great book full of good

no picture

It is gone for me. All others on other post showing.

10’ x 16’ room. 3’ door along a long wall in a corner;

I built an O scale layout in a room about that size with a door in the corner. The benchwork was about chest high around the walls with a lift out section at the door. With the benchwork 24 inches or less wide there was still plenty of space in the center of the room for operators and other uses. Around the walls gives the greatest length of run for the space and allows the scenery to be less compressed and more realistic proportioned. It also allows greater curve radius since there is no need to turn so sharply. Shelf type benchwork is very easy to build in a manner that can be dismantled and saved if one ever has to move. The lift out was no problem and only was in place when running trains.  In the center of the room type layout would be harder to move and would take up more space but could be better if a large continuous mountain scene is desired and if one had the time to finish it to a high degree of detail.......DaveB

An Island Pike ...

First, thanks for all the input, advice and ideas.  

Jack, good call on using HO flex track in areas where it is 'hidden' ... honestly, I'm not certain that I'd have made that connection on my own.    I also appreciate your sharing your experience on the island vs. around the walls issue ... something that will weigh heavily in my considerations of layout design.

DaveB, as always, your observations are pretty much spot on ... kind of hard to argue much with any of it.  The voice of experience is always worth listening too.

With that, I will offer up something along the lines of what my initial idea for this On30 pike was.  I encourage any and all to feel free to bash it, trash it, whatever; won't hurt my feelings on this one ...

I tried hard to come up with a workable solution for the 5' x 10' island pike; but, in my mind the length of 'usable' space was just not long enough.  So, I pushed one of the curves against the wall without the windows and had another go.  This allowed for two 30" x 8' sections connected by ~21" curves (with easements).  One side has the small town as I've envisioned it (based upon Arrow, Colorado of the D&SL); the other would contain the stamp mill (and associated buildings).  No. 6 turnouts were used throughout.  The 180 degree curves would be 'hidden': the right one by dense forest (perhaps including aspens in the fall?); the left one by rock cuts and/or tunnels.  As an aside, I'm considering adding a tressel along part of that curve and allowing a very limited view (i.e., a peek through a gap in scenery) of it ... very clear in my mind, not certain how it would work in real life ...

The main 'advantages' of an island vs. along the wall (as it pertains to my particular situation):

1. Smaller:

    a. quicker to build to an 'operational' level (i.e., the point at which trains are running;

    b. quicker to scenic to a higher level of detail.

    c. easier to move (fewer pieces).

2. Continuous run.

3. The two longer scenes could conceivably be incorporated into some future layout.

The main disadvantages (as I see them) are:

1. No mechanism for turning a locomotive.

2. A simple oval such as this may not be able to overcome the impression of the train chasing its own tail ...

3. The (operation of a) layout in this form consumes a tremendous amount of real estate ...

So, again if any of you have some ideas or suggestions for improvements, please share them.  Likewise, if you strongly recommend abandoning this idea and making better use of the available space; I'd welcome those thoughts as well.  

Now ... I'm toying with some ideas based on the two layouts suggested by the good Professor and Mr. hobbes ...

Circuits =/= necessarily tailchasers

Dear Dave,

"Ovals feel like tailchasers" is easily overcome, if you apply the discipline to not run them as such, and scenic viewblock appropriately...

Examples:
- The "Cripple Creek Central" project layout from MRR magazine in the early 90s.
- Broughton Vale Tramway 

http://www.geocities.ws/loggingloco1/BVT/bvbuilding1.html(Overview)
http://www.geocities.ws/loggingloco1/BVT/bvstructures1.html(One "side", spot the mouse-hole!)
http://www.geocities.ws/loggingloco1/BVT/bcstructures1.html(The "open" end of the oval)
http://www.geocities.ws/loggingloco1/BVT/wmstructures1.html(the other "side", spot the mouse-hole!)

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Good point, Prof ...

... and well taken.

Thanks for sharing the links to Broughton Vale Tramway (BVT).

I am a bit surprised (pleasantly even) by the many similarities of BVT and my initial swag at an On30 mining layout (at least in general terms).  Perhaps as we were both working toward similar goals in a 'minimalist' design, it was inevitable that they would reduce to a similar design (even a trestle on the curve! ).  Perhaps it is a workable idea after all?

My 'inspiration' for the 'peek' at the trestle comes from Peter Wehrhahn's 2014 Calendar  https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/my-free-calendar-2014-logging-in-the-west-12195442

He was kind enough to provide a larger copy, which serves as a wallpaper for my computer's desktop.  

I suspect that the usual operation of the BVT was as a point-to-point; with the trains shuttling back and forth between the mill and the camp via the trestle?  Trying to get it through my thick skull the idea of backing the 4-4-0 from the mill to the town; I know the real railroads often had to resort to that when there wasn't a facility to turn them.  Somehow shuttling back and forth such a short distance seems no better than just proceeding around the next bend in my particular situation; as I'm not really intending on moving material between my two scenes, but rather between each of the scenes and some 'off-site' (unmodeled) destination ... 

In my mind's eye, I'd run my train in a clockwise direction ... from the town; over the trestle; to the mill; through the woods; and back into town.  As I've not provided for any connections to the 'rest of the world' (one just assumes that they exist somewhere between the visible scenes); operations would be a simple matter of setting out or picking up or exchanging cars between the customer(s) and the train.  A car picked up at one location would become a candidate for delivery to another customer on the other side of the layout ... in other words, a  box car loaded with bags of concentrated ore received from the stamp mill may become a box car of freight destined for the freight house in town ... or perhaps it remains on the train to be delivered to the mine store on the next circuit ....

And an Around the Walls Pike ...

Basically took my desired elements and spread them out along the walls following DaveB's recommendations.  Bench work is 24" deep; 30" minimum radius curves (with easements) and No.6 frogs.  I started out thinking I'd stick with the two 8' sections I'd worked up from the island pike; however, that upper left corner was just screaming for the mill to be located there, so that is where it went.

With the narrower shelves, the town pretty much was reduced to 'fronts' ... and that is perhaps not such a bad thing.  In my mind's eye, the town is built upon the mountain slope above the mainline (which will be located relatively high at chest level) ... so the building fronts should actually be above most viewers eye level.

This plan is obviously much more 'relaxed' and it looks like I could fit in a small service facility on the left wall; perhaps widening the bench work a bit there to accommodate it.

Let me know what you think, good or bad.  

Traffic to the Mill

HI Dave, The mill will require some "stuff" from the outside world - like coal for the boilers, chemicals, lubricants, machinery spares such as drive pulleys, etc. And you can also run a "shift change" service from the town and back. For heavy "stuff" like large bits of machinery, you might need a "special shunt" between the store to the mill if the "heavy stuff" didn't/couldn't go to the mill direct from the outside world.

5x 10 On30 layout suggestion

MR published an Iain Rice 5 x 10 On30 (On21/2 to them) layout starting on page 96 January 2000 called the Elk Creek and Western. Had a center cockpit for the operator. 18" radius curves etc. I always though that increasing it by 50% to 7.5 x 15 and around the walls would give you 27" curves to run the larger locos on. I know  of a gentleman in the midwest who blew it up to 7 x 13 or so as an around the walls layout with larger curves. Worth a look either way IMHO.

Bill Uffelman

Retiring 6/30/2014 in Ocean View DE

Thanks for the ideas ...

John ... yes, the mill would require loads to be delivered ... coal being a rather good example.  Are you suggesting that I install another track?  I was just going to assume that the operation is small enough, that everything comes and goes on the one track.  The 'store' is associated with the mill complex, so some items could conceivably originate from and be delivered there as well.

Bill ... good eye/memory.  Surprisingly enough I actually have a copy of that issue of MR here with me (I have most of Late '99 through early '03 as I was in Bahrain in those days and that 'stuff' was shipped to Sri Lanka ... heh.  I had not paid much attention to it in the past, but now that I look at it, it shows quite a bit of merit.  To be honest, as I view the room, I am somewhat intimidated by the thought of how much 'railroad' is really there in an 'around-the-walls design.  In Sri Lanka, there really is NOTHING in the way of model railroad shops ... there are a few model railroaders about (even have a show now and again); but EVERYTHING specific to model railroading must come from overseas.  That is another reason driving me to 'keeping it small (and simple)'

Now then, having said that I'm really getting an itch to 'bash' this loco ... seems like there is a lot of potential to really do something 'interesting' here (and the price was certainly right).  So, perhaps the 'urgency' of a layout is not as great as it had seemed ... (also an imminent move back to the States in the not so distant future has got me second guessing myself).

And if all that was not enough ... in another thread the good Prof showed something that rekindled an old fire, from many, many years back ... more on this later.

Traffic to the Mill Pt2

Hi Dave, perhaps not another track, but, how about something like an A-frame crane or hand-crane of a plinth next to a small loading platform with perhaps a small shelter or shed to store slings, hand trolleys and "stuff" before you get to the Mill? More like a scenic item with a purpose rather than another major structure. I'm thinking along the lines of http://www.crowriverproducts.com/A_Fixed_BoomCrane308.htm but with perhaps a smaller crane and platform. If a wagon is being loaded/unloaded there, it would have to be moved when the Mill Turn arrives to replace the loads with empties at the Mill. This wagon would then have to be re-spotted to complete its loading/unloading, before the Mill Turn departs. 

More options...

Dear Dave,

I'm not loosing you from the On30 fold that easily....

Consider some of the plans from Lennart Elg, in your case recast from logging to mining...

http://sloat_lumber_co.tripod.com/TRAKPLAN.HTM

http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/data/quarryman/201411171342_LD_0n30_dolly_varden.jpg

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

The Mill ....

ah, yes John, you are absolutely correct.  I wasn't very clear on this, but the 'mill' would comprise of several buildings and other structures, that I did not bother to show.  Likewise the 'town' is just some scattered shapes to give a general 'feel' for what would go there (several structures lined up along a gently curving dirt road.

Thanks for the link to that pillar crane, that sort of item and others are quite useful for creating the scene.  (And it actually fits in well with another idea I'm exploring.)  

Prof, there is a deeper and darker realm in the world of Narrow Gage, that has had a grip on me for many, many years.  I had been able to resist its temptation all this time, on account of a critical component not being readily available ... until one showed up in a post you had made in another thread ....  I'm still working on the sourcing ... but things are looking bright.

Thanks for the plans.  The Dolly Varden Mine looks quite interesting ....

The around the walls plan

The around the walls plan looks good, to my untrained eye you could even perhaps make a wye in the bottom right corner to turn engines and possibly disguise it as a junction going somewhere else  for some visual interest,