Most structures will fit in a

Most structures will fit in a 20" deck separation. The deeper the scene, the greater the separation is required for good visual effect. Double and triple your % grade and length of run to achieve this height allowing for smooth transitions in and out of the grade. Your plan looks interesting.

I too model in ON30 but with a DRG theme. MMI's K27/28/36/37 are my big loco power. My space is 15' x 35' and have researched 30", 35" and 40" radius to follow the generic along the walls with a helix on the peninsula; very similar to your plan. It can be done but the allowable space becomes tight with bench work VS aisle space. I urge a scale drawing be done and a quick mock up to get a real vision of the proposed plan. Informed decisions are better than just 'winging it' for long term enjoyment.

Wazzzy

radius for big engines

First off welcome to the darkside!

While the ads say xyz loco will make nn radius, don't believe it.  We designed in 'more than enough' at 32 inch min, but the MMI K's just don't like it to well.  Our test's show that 34 will work with the size trains we are trying to run, but 32 is right on the ragged edge.  We got a couple of loco's to work but with some effort on our part.  Layout is 20x40 triple deck.  Using ME code 83 flex and #5 turnouts.  2 % grade with 24 inch separation between main level and top level, 18 inch between main level and lower storage level.  Most important - have fun!  Russ

http://www.hobby-tronics.com/1940DRGW

clearance height

My Climax needs 3 1/4" clearance and it is not the tallest out there in the On30 World.  You may have to adjust where the tracks crossover in loop.

Doug W

Thanks for everyone's input

Thanks for everyone's input so far.

So 20in is doable for deck separate.

The height of the loco i will be using

Bachmann Spectrum 2-6-0 Mogul On30
Locomotive Size- Tender Size-
Length: 7" (17.8cm) Length: 4-3/4" (12.2cm)
Width: 2" (5.1cm) Width: 1-3/4" (4.6cm)
Height: 2-3/4" (7.2cm) Height: 1-3/4" (4.4cm)

Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 ON30
SPECS: Scale: On30
Overall Size -
Length: 12-1/2" (318mm)
Width: 2-1/8" (55mm)
Height: 3-1/4" (83mm)

And the min spec radius   for these are 18" and 22". I have a made my min spec radius to be 24in, so hopefully I have covered that. I do have room to move to push this out to 27in.At the expense of bench work around the walls

Im using SCARM  to  draw up the plan as shown. Where the tracks loop is only a 84mm separation. So more work is needed on this aspect of the plan.

So far I have one pinch point of 24 aisle space. Not  too happy with that at the moment. Another area to fine tune massage. One fear I have is the yard. Im working on 3in track separation. But the fear I have is making it look too crowded. Less is more?

Regards  Phil

NZ

my min spec radius to be 24in,

You might look into Sn3 instead. 24 inch radius in O scale is 96 feet while 24 inch in S scale is 128 feet so S scale running on 24 inch radius looks like O scale running on 32 inch radius( or a lot better in other words). The 20 inch deck separation grows from 80 feet to about 107 feet which is about 30% more scenic height or about 75 % more scenic area. The slightly smaller scale would allow less compressed scenery or wider aisle if that was preferable..DaveB

MMI = exception that proves rule

Dear On30 Curious,

Yes, MMI's efforts are unashamedly designed to not get down to "B'mann-esque" 18" radii performance,
with a publicly stated 26+" radii minimum (the On3 version minimum is even broader).

Consider the MMI locos the "edges of the bell curve" examples,
at least in terms of "defacto mechanical norms" for the scale/gauge...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Thank you Prof Klyzlr I

Thank you Prof Klyzlr

I have being using your On30 Practical Minimum Radius Guide PDF. And basing min curves from the information you have researched. I wont being using K27,  I mean don't get me wrong they are gorgeous looking models.And would love to run them.

But being practical, I don't have the space to run them. Hence why my motive power will be  2-6-0, 4-4-0(outside frame) and 4-6-0. Another option  I am looking at is a helix at 30in radius, with a 120mm clearance between decks, gives a  grade of 2.5%, according to the helix calculator program I have.

http://my1287.dk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=351:helix-calculator-ver-11&catid=116:downloads&Itemid=143

Just need to  work on clearance numbers and how many turns to reach a second deck.

I did look at Sn3, but to be honest the cost of the engines  was a bit  dis hearting,  Much like  NZR S Scale (narrow Gauge)

Regards Phil

the cost of the engines was a bit dis hearting

Yeah, PBL's can cost a pretty penny. I think there's two ways to get around that. First is buy less stuff, instead of 3 Bachman locos buy one Railmaster loco. I've occasionally seen nice Sn3 brass on ebay for $300 or so  if the specific loco isn't important. The second way would be to use the HO track and mechanisms but model in Sn42 instead of On30.  The big advantage of 1:64 modeling versus 1:48 modeling is the buildings and scenery don't take up so much space so a layout can be built less compressed. Instead of narrow gauge an HO standard gauge line built as a branchline or shortline might also be a good direction to go.Something like the Yreka Western that connected with the SP could give a narrow gauge feel using standard gauge equipment and 1:87 scenery for greatly expanded scenery. Ian Rice published a layout plan  called the Siskiyou shortline or something similar based on the Yreka Western in one of his books. Unless you'd modeled in O scale it's hard to visualize the difficulty of getting good looking scenery in average sized rooms.I think Bachman misleads people by telling them they can model O scale with HO track but never emphasizing that the scenery still takes up O scale space so many On30 layout end up greatly compressed and cartoonish  ....DaveB

Dear Phil, Out of interest,

Dear Phil,

Out of interest, which version do you have?
(check for a "Vxx.xx" number at the top left of each page)

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

V11.09

V11.09

Dear Phil, The PDF with the

Dear Phil,

The PDF with the pics? If it doesn't have pics the data is still the last (most current) version,
it just doesn't look as pretty...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Yes has all the pics of the

Yes has all the pics of the engines, rolling stock. A very good guide tbh

After spending time

After spending time researching  between Sn3 and On30. Im going to go with On30. Due to a number of factors

Being working on different track plans. So far this version is what i like best for the lower level. Also this version has a 28in radius helix. Train length will only be engine  plus 6 hopper to upper levels.

Once I purchase the engines I will be using on this layout. then I can test, to see if this is feasible. Can be pushed out to 30in radius if need be.

I have settle on a New Zealand flavor for this layout. As it is easier for me to model, being outside my door step. Plus will make the photo backdrops easier to produce.

Just drive, take photos and then have my mate at Cannon print them out, on their fancy roll printing machines.(for a cost of course)

Im thinking I will either set it  up north,  from Auckland around Otiria - Kawakawa - Opua (KawaKawa use to have a  coal mine) Or down in the South island  around the Denniston Plateau (no snails will be harmed of course).

I have included a photo of he scenery flavor I will be aiming for. Any feed back regarding the plan, fine tuning would be greatly helpful. I have  gone with min 3" track separation as well  

I have being pondering the

I have being pondering the wye section, at the top left corner. Thinking is there a better way of putting the wye in. Main purpose of this wye is to turn the steam engines and to access staging. Total area to work with is 52"x143". Any thoughts?

Peninsula Gaps?

Hi Phil, Is there a way to even up the gaps between the peninsula and the edges of the layout attached to the wall? You might find the 24" gap may become a little tight. 27" plus 27" may be a better option than 31" plus a narrower 24" walkway. That extra 3" clearance may make the difference between brushing something with an elbow (rolling stock or landscape) or clearing it with some room to spare. Or am I missing something?  

Hi John   No you haven't

Hi John

No you haven't missed anything. The new plan on this page puts the peninsula gaps at a even 30in each side, as after mocking up clearance gaps, 24in   is just too tight, even thought i'm a slim 6ft 3in.

Im still making small adjustments this area  plus the wye. As what plan is ever perfect. The benchwork will  curved around the peninsula.

Peninsular gaps + height

Dear Phil, OzTrainz,

I'd also ask, how high is the benchwork going to be mounted? 27" may be a squeeze when measured around the stomach, but could be plenty of room when measured around the neck/shoulders...

Happy Modelling,
Aiming for the near-eye-level "scale altitude view" always,
Prof Klyzlr

Lower  deck will be set at

Lower  deck will be set at 44-45in112.5cm) Upper deck will be around 64-65"(160-162.5) mark

Another issue I have is what

Another issue I have is what to do with over $700NZD worth of Peco Code 83 turnouts. DO I use them, and slowly replace them with  handlaid turnouts. (being looking at fasttracks) Or not worry about it and  just hand laid the straight and curved sections track, since most photo's show  the track just about buried in dirt, ballast. Your thoughts?

You've got the gear, use it...

Dear Phil,

Believe you've answered your own question. It's virtually impossible to "get one's $$$ back" on 2nd hand Model RR gear, even if that gear is "NIB". Strategic nipping away of maybe every 2nd sleeper on turnouts will help avoid the "HO track for O scale" look as far as ends-of-sleepers-protruding-from-the-dirt/ballast-profile look goes. And, as noted, if you are modelling the ye-genuine grass/dirt covered sleeper appearance of lightly-trod tramways, the arguably-undersized sleeper dimensions become a non-issue.
(Esp if you are modelling NZ/Aussie-esque Tramways as opposed to North American 3' gauge Railroads)

Example:

(PECO Code 75 "Finescale" HO turnouts, sleepers nipped/trimmed, VS handlaid)

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

what to do with over $700NZD worth of Peco Code 83 turnouts.

I'd use them and not worry about it. There's a lot more regular track than turnouts on a layout so folks can look at it if the Peco ties bother their sensibilities. Add some dirt or ballast around the turnouts and maybe glue on a few cosmetic tie end extensions in random spots to give the inference of longer ties....DaveB  

Thanks for both your

Thanks for both your suggestions. Would be a waste not to use them.  and will order some jigs from Fast tracks to  lay the rest of the track, as im thinking over bridges would look better with longer ties etc

jigs from Fast tracks to lay the rest of the track

I wouldn't bother with jigs, just glue down PC board ties every fifth tie or so and fill between the PC board ties  with dummy wood ties then solder the rails. Takes about 10 minutes of practice to get proficient at it. Save the jig money for rail and ties. If you don't like the look of PC board ties use all wooden ties and hand spike the rails or spend the jig money on a Kadee spiker to really speed up the spiking operation.......DaveB

Never thought of doing it

Never thought of doing it that way.

I have never hand laid track before. So getting a 3 point track gauge would help? How hard is it to lay curves? The thing that worries me is using PC Boards and wooden ties, is  you cant use stain on the PC Board, so i would have to airbrush the lot. More reading up on this is on order feel.

Phil