East Rail

Lance Mindheim's East Rail layout was designed based on prototype with no runaround. The prototype would push cars in to switch and the one spur with trailing point turnout would have the car "blocked" correctly. 

The prototype probably ran around as needed somewhere else and on the model, staging was a cassette so cars were staged as needed.

Bill Michael

Link to East Rail

Here is a link to the East Rail layout on Lance's site:

http://www.lancemindheim.com/east_rail.htm

Bill Michael

Are they really necessary?

Depends on what the work is. If everything faces one way and the cars show up on the right end of the loco then there's no need to run around. The Erie's Harlem station is a good example, all the cars arrive by car float and all the tracks face the same way as the float bridge tracks. Right down the river the DL&W's Harlem Transfer needs the run around tracks since half the tracks face the opposite direction from the float bridge tracks( they ran around the cars on a loop here  instead of a run around siding but the same principle) . For a layout I'd add a run around if there was enough room as it makes it more interesting to play with and creates more switching variety plus it allows industries to be faced both ways which is handy when trying to get enough modeling space on a small layout, a long switching lead can't have industries placed along it but add a run around and a backwards facing spur along side it and it can....DaveB

Set your context, the answers will come...

Dear ??? (Beachbum),

As Always I reccomend first to nominate the prototype, or at least the prototype inspiration, that you'd like to emulate. Then the appropriate answer for you will reveal itself.

To wit:

- some RRs run their locals DOWN the branch switching only trailing point spurs.
They then ensure that there a run-around at/near the end of the branch, so the train can "end for end".
On the return UP journey, the train services the now-trailing (previously-inaccessible facing) point spurs.

- If the industry you are modellling on an Protonook or Fork layout is one of the "mid-branch" spurs along the branch mentioned above, there is no need or reason to model the (could be many miles away) end-of-branch runaround.
(consider, such a branch can be looked at Macro-focus fashion,
and thus functionally broken down into a series of mid-branch 'Nooks strung end-to-end serial LDE style,
with a runaround/Timesaver at the end...

said another way, a no-runaround single-industry/multi-carspot "proto-nook" can also be considered a standalone "LDE" or "Layout Design Element").

- Sometimes that "end of branch" runaround is not actually right at the end of the branch, and there may be 1 or more "industry spurs" forming the practical "end of track" beyond the far-turnout of the run-around. 

Examples:
- check the "Florida Bottling"/"A-1 farmers"/"Miami Produce" peninsular on Lance M's "Downtown Spur"
http://www.lancemindheim.com/downtown_spur2.htm

- check the "Pacific Plastics" situation on the end of the La Brea Chem Lead on Union Pacific in LA (local LOA36R)

- some RR's send their locals to "switching areas", clusters of industries all radiating out from a central small yard (quite possibly with a "runaround"). The "local" then has x hours to do whatever switching, of whichever spurs (trailing or facing agnostic), using whatever trackage is available within "yard limits'.

Examples
- CCT Lodi Industrial Lead
http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/15821
/> http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/17192

NB if due to space contraints, you were focussing on modelling the Sweetener Co plant at Lodi,
you could get away with a Protonook, no runaround required
(have checked this with XTrkCAD, do-able on a 5x1 in HO. With MT coming out with SW1500s and Atlas already offering a CCT GP9, you could go even smaller...) 

- CSX "the Chocolate" switching area, just off the NEC at Mansfield

NB the curved spur into the old cement plant has been "out of service" for some years now.(Note the containers and skips sitting on top of the rails, beyond the close gate and rusty-rail state).

Given this, you might think that the spurs to National Lumber, Stone Co, and National Warehousing are all "trailing point" if the loco is on the RH end of the train. What you'd be missing is that to get into "the Chocolate", the train has shove from the NEC Junction, giving you a starting-position of the locos on the LH end of the train... (Whoops...)

Now, want/need to model the entire "just arrived off the NEC" state thru to "all moves completed, ready to heade back onto the NEC" state? Then yes, you'll need the runaround, esp the turnout just to the Sth of Maple. (who said it had to be an actual turnout? A 12-18" dropleaf sectorplate would fucntionally do the job just as well...)

However, want/need only to model/emulate the "switching moves" between National Lumber, Stone Co, and National Warehousing (inc that oh-soo-Nookish loco + 3x centerbeam switchback to access National Lumber)?

If so, you can assume that "the lights came up on our scene" just after the "gotten off the NEC, get prepp'd to switch" runaround move has been completed, and the locos are "staged" on the RH end of the consist.
(IE no physical runaround actually needs to be paid or modelled...)

One more...

- Clackamas Ore, on the UP
http://goo.gl/maps/VHytT
/> (Start at SE Last Road, locate the railroad line immediately to the North, then follow it East along all spurs)

http://www.fogchart.com/Down/Yard/OC_Switcher.pdf
/> (schematic view of Clackamas on Page 2 of the PDF. Note the "directions" to switch Clackamas. How would you serve Wymore, Holman, and Canned Foods? If you were modelling only one of these 3 industries, with their carspots and specific spot instructions, you could easily fill in an 30 min 2-person eng+brakeman op session with a literall 1-turnout "fork" layout).

I guess what I'm pointing at is:
- specify the driving/inspiration for the layout, and what is "most appropriate" RE "runaround, or not" will become apparent.

- scope of the model layout may limit "how much" of a given local's daily grind you can physically fit within the space available

- by strategic staging, and considering at-what-point-in-proceedings the session "starts", the lack of runaround facilities can be mitigated, or eliminated

- instead of compresssing all of the industries in a "industrial lead" or switching district into the available space, thus giving many seperate industries where none of which are big enough to justify RR service, 
and likely creating an impossible-to-switch track arrangement,
(a "timesaver-esque" situation comes to mind),

rather, select one or 2 industries with specified carspot positions,
actively DEcompress your view of the industries such that they make best-advantage of the available space,
then recognize the "proto-nook-ness" of many of them, and build/op them in consequence.

Final twist, when the tracks were laid, and the initial conditions of their construction may well affect their "design ethos".

EG Older industry such as the Blue Herron Paper Mill in Oregon City (LIL75 http://www.fogchart.com/Down/Yard/OC_Switcher.pdf page 1) features
- a runaround to facilitate "plant switching"
- a 2x SW1500 + 4 car switchback/switchlead in the street
- and a trolley-car busting curve onto the "short track"

This line was run up until 2000, but owes it's track design, to an early 1900s traction line.
(that the initial service was via the now "switchback", thus effectively "flipping" all the facing turnouts to trailing and vice versa, is just another "historical" detail).

EG #2 Meeker Southern in Puyallup, WA. a 7-mile shortline, with all-trailing turnouts and some "spot on the mainline at milepost X" industries. I'll leave it to you to work out how the McMillian Park or Industry end-of-track spurs are switched. No Runaround.
http://goo.gl/maps/Dr7gS
/> (Left/West to BNSF interchange at Puyallup, Right/East to E-o-T at McMillan)

EG #3 Progressive Rail Airlake Industrial Park
http://goo.gl/maps/D7Bvf
/> An example of a modern purpose-designed and built Industrial park. In such recent builds, there is a conscious effort to place all turnouts "the same way", as this pernits efficient switching and avoids the time delay eaten with constant end-for-end running-around moves. Prog Rail roster 2x locos on site, and they work as a team to handle "each way" switching duties.
(Think of it as a pair of proto-nooks, interleaved, and facing in opposite directions...)

I hope this gives some food for thought...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS above all else, and holds-true for both "current uses of older/repurposed/spun-off" and "recently designed/laid" trackage, it takes $$$ and effort for the prototype to lay rail. As such, they don't tend to lay trackage (or runarounds) that they don't actually have to...

Flying switch

While nearly impossible to do on a model railroad, I was always amazed to watch the Frisco (SLSF) make flying switches onto two facing point spurs next to where I worked (and looked out the overhead door whenever they came by). This was in the seventies and the spurs were eliminated by the time BN took over. Experienced crews didn't need runarounds back then. I believe it's outlawed everywhere today.

willie

Progressive Rail

This is a very interesting railroad and the one Im planning. I live in Minnesota and have hung out in Airlake industrial park in Lakeville. Check out Google maps or the one I prefer Bing. While its true that Airlake used to not have a runaround and used two switchers. That is not the case now. Their transload facility Can make a small switching layout on its own. There are also several pellet hopper transload lots. And Building supplies.

Definitely worth checking out .

Any questions ask me

Dick

Modeling the FLYING SWITCH

The railroad I'm modeling in HO (Santa Maria CA Railroad) had a propane factory in my era (early 1960s) that they had to do a flying switch into. If they did anything else, the wound up with their loco trapped down a mile-long spur.

So, I've pondered how to model it. Here's how I've settled on. The operator uncouples the car to be "flying switched" from the string and positions it upstream from the turnout and uncouples the loco. The loco moves forward to clear the turnout. The operator uses one finger to move the tank car onto the spur. The loco backs (and may engage the remainder of the string in the process) and then moves forward to shove the empty tank onto the spur. If there are full cars on the spur, they are brought back to the main and left while the empty is spotted. The switching job continues with the tank in front of the loco until the local job is back to the loco servicing facility where there are run-around possibilities.

While this mimics reality and obviates the need for a run-around at the spur, it still needs a run-around somewhere on the layout.

Also, consider the need to turn locos on the layout. Takes up a lot of room, but is necessary.

Again, the SMVRR did NOT have a turntable. But they did have a wye. I'm struggling with how to fit a wye onto 24 inch deep bench work in HO.

A few years back i worked for

A few years back i worked for Progressive Rail as engineer/conductor at the Lakeville industrial park.

While there was a small runaround track on the old MN&S main all the switching in the park was conducted using two locomotives to handle customers whether they were on a facing or trailing point switch. One crew would either pull the industry and then pass it to another crew to spot it, either for a customer or to make up the outbound train for interchange.

This worked remarkedly well but on other jobs without a caboose, to make safe shoves you need a runaround. Consider winter weather today in parts of the midwest with snow and ice and imagine riding the side of a car for any distance ...you will soon see the wisdom of either a shove caboose or a runaround and those that don't chose either one obviously haven't spent time as a railroader. The reason the operations and crews which Lance models made easy shoves was mild weather with only the occasional snake, alligator or un-safe motorist. 

Rather than try to prove how many crews make it without a caboose or run around track why not be smart and just figure it into your layout plan as there always is a way to do so.

Barry  

A couple of questions

I'm sure prototype railroads would avoid runarounds where they could by having all turnouts facing one way.

I guess two questions for the model builder/layout operator are:

1)  Is there room for a runaround?  A typical runaround can take up as little as three or four feet, with 16" needed at either end.  If there's not enough room, a re-working of the plan may be required, or even a change of scale being modeled.  Perhaps running around fewer cars at once is the solution.

2)  Is the runaround desired because it provides operational interest?  With all turnouts facing the same way, an operator could pick up and set off cars very quickly and easily, but where's the challenge?  Taken to the extreme, one section of track with no turnouts is simple and doesn't take up much space, but it's not very interesting to switch.

OPERATIONAL INTEREST

I have the run arounds for operational interest. More movements and possibilities. Plus it gives you the opportunity to put the engine on front of the train if you are going back where it came from.

"The railroad I'm modeling in

    Wow, I've seen a lot of cars dropped into spurs but I 've never seen it done with propane tankers. I think I'd rather go a mile to the run around and  carefully shove them up there :> ) ........DaveB

Beachbum, Your two biggest

Beachbum,

Your two biggest mistakes are listening to conventional wisdom regarding "layout design" and asking what the collective mind thinks.

If you're interested in following what the prototype does, then watch what the prototype does. The real railroads do NOT put in run arounds to add "operational interest".

Pucker factor

The thought of dropping a car loaded with propane is exciting in so many ways (many of them not positive).  Probably common in the 1960's, would break a gazillion rules today.

The propane cars being flying-switched . . .

were empties, going in to fill.

This was the early 1960s. They stored the empties under an underpass - just happened to be US-101!

Time bomb!

Actually, empty cars are more dangerous than loaded cars.  Residual propane in an enclosed tank is like a giant bomb! Flying switching was I'm sure very common before real safety standards were in place so it really depends on the era being modeled.  My layout is setup as a large single track loop, but 3/4 of the layout is "double" track with the inside "main" serving as a very large passing siding/runaround and what ever else I need it for.  Many of the prototype rail customers in my area are served by a single siding, but usually that siding comes off of a passing siding that doubles a runaround. 

Comments

Dear Run-arounders, Barry S,

Even less if one (or both) ends of the runaround are functionally and mechanically represented by sectorplates, traversers, or similar...
(Google "Brooklyn : 3AM")

...or, try DEcompressing the key scene, and focussing on the ops of that scene, rather than trying to shoehorn soo many "extra industries" as to make a thumbnail runaround a necessity?

Arguably if the prototype inspiration that is leading the design isn't "interesting enough" as-is,
(IE without artificially adding extra stuff "for the sake of more-to-do"),
then possibly it may pay to go back and rethink whether the root prototype inspiration is actually appropriate for the modeller's needs and wants?

One word, "Proto-nook" (Has been thoroughly discussed here onlist previously)

Agreed in principle,
(although it only takes one turnout and a spur to represent 1000's of prototype industries worldwide),

but may want to google and YT "Violet Alley" in LA, on the current day UP, just to be sure...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

A couple of thoughts in no

A couple of thoughts in no particular order:

-Bruce: in the scenario you have with your propane place, the crew would likely pull the engine onto the industry track and drop the car on the straight route. The engine will stop faster on the shorter track and gives the crew extra time to spin a hand brake on the free rolling car, not to mention dropping an empty through a switch is a lot more likely to fail if you don't get enough on it.

Running around cars is, in the real world, the absolute last resort. It's a pain in the you know what. Why not split the engines, as someone noted above? if you have two engines you can run around a train on a single switch. Be creative.

Why not split units? I am not

Why not split units? I am not sure if you have ever done this but it certainly is more difficult to separate locomotives which are MUed than to run around around cars. Maybe in the model world but not on the prototype.

I know, I have been there done that plenty of times and I always wanted the ease of a run around rather than splitting units especially when everything is covered with ice and snow.

Barry   

 "Why not split the engines,

I think the objective is to copy the operations there not re-invent them. Perhaps a sloping scene and freewheeling cars could allow a drop in a fashion, maybe install a retractable brake pin in the track then run the loco ahead of the car before releasing the brake, then throw the switch after the loco is clear and hope the car keeps rolling :> ) . I guess a surer method would be powered cars with DCC control so the operator could mimic the process. Even surer would be to call a time out then place the car on the spur then restart the clock :> )....DaveB

Locos on both ends

I've seen locos on both ends of a 5 or 6 car local (NS in Wooster, OH), I could hear the lead loco doing all the work, when the second loco (last car) of the train came by, it wasn't making a sound (or maybe in a quiet 'idle')..the guy in that loco had his feet up on the 'dashboard' reading the paper, I didn't even see his face.

In Clearfield, UT, there is a local that switches around and within the Freeport Center by backing from the nearby yard to switch the Home Depot warehouse (usually trades 3 or 4 cars) and it has a caboose on the end.  When backing, there are usually two guys on the platform, looking out and blowing the horn for grade crossings (it sounds like a semi-truck horn rather than a 'train' horn). Sometimes it leaves a string of cars 'off-spot' along our building (which activates a bell on the side door of our building which causes a bell inside the building to go off ...Ding! ...click... Ding! ...click... I remember it going off all weekend long once.  Sometimes a long string of cars is left there for hours while the loco (presumably) goes off to another area to do some work before returning.  I was traveling for work and am not familiar with that area, but it had lots of switching.  The Freeport Center is several rows of buildings serviced by a center running track and spurs on both sides of the running track.  While watching the switching and driving around the Freeport Center, I got some good ideas for some switching modules (simple track arrangement but lots of potential for operating).

Operational Interest for me.

I chose to have to use run-a-rounds on purpose. My layout is a point to point layout with a yard at each end. The layout was built to be a switching layout and switching problems were built into every town.

I  don't particularly care to watch trains run in circles. The cars that make up the trains that can run in circles come from industries and businesses. I prefer to gather these cars up, take them to a yard where they'll be made into a train and move out of town onto hidden staging tracks.

A local freight can easily take up to a couple of hours to pick up all of its cars and deliver them to a yard.

Operational Interest for me.

Montanan- WELL SAID !!

Runarounds

Been a while since I looked at this thread.

Our club has started up operations on a partially complete branch that will eventually stretch about 140' and have about 70-80 car spots on it. Our Ops guy has ginned up blocking diagrams for the inbound and outbound haulers that will service roughly half of the spots.

(The end point has a local switch job and an interchange track; there's also a dedicated rock train shuttle that runs to a cement batch plant).

Essentially, the inbound run handles all of the trailing switches in its direction, and the outbound blocks its own cars and does the same. There are enough pickups and setouts that no one has reported being bored or short-changed, but the only runaround move is at the end of the branch.

Kicking and Dropping

If there was a way to drop or kick cars consistently in scale I would love to build a layout without any runarounds. Since dropping and kicking just do not scale down very well, I have stuck with modeling what is easier.

I will have a spot on my layout that the crew will have to gather their cars up and shove out to industry to spot customers. They will all be facing point customers.