Definitely

going to try that, Jurgen, thanks.  Life over the last while hasn't allowed me to do much in the train room, but when I do get a chance to do some switching, I almost always have to clean the rails when the loco sputters along.  I'm still wondering if it is this particular loco or not, but at least the graphite is a cheap method for improving things, even if I do have to play with this loco some more.

Pencil it in

Easy enough to understand why the graphite is working for you. Graphite, as you note, is a good conductor of electricity. Your graphite treatment is essentially placing a conductive layer on top of your metal rail conductors. Since the graphite doesn't oxidize the conduction remains in place. Even if you were to put the graphite on oxidized track it would probably still work as the graphite could pickup current from the spots on the track that do not have oxidation and conduct it throughout the graphite layer.

The one possible issue that may arise is the fact that the graphite is not mechanically or chemically bound to the rails. It is analogous to a powdered donut. The powder stays put until a force acts upon it. Since wheels roll instead of scrape or slide then one would think the graphite has a reasonable chance of hanging around for a while. Still, it would be nice if the graphite were anchored to the rails so as to maintain a contiguous conductor.

If you can figure a way to make flangeways you could run trains on your pencil drawn track plan! 

sticky powder

The clay used as a binder in the graphite stick also makes it want to cling to surfaces, so it will stay put better than you might think.  That's another reason to use the softer grades, since they have more clay in them.  Reapplication is simplicity itself anyway; you just grab the stick and drag it along the railhead again--it takes seconds.

This is interesting!

I wonder what this would do...

http://www.agspecialty.com/EZslide.htm

Graphite paint.

I wonder what this would do...

make the layout smell like a farm?   Seems like a layer of graphite would just be another surface to collect dust and grease the same as bare rail does?  Every coating I've ever heard of eventually reverts to running bad and then there's just one more layer to clean off to get back to nice clean bare rails.....DaveB

nothing nice about bare metal

All `nice clean bare rails` do is oxidize until you can`t run reliably again.  Operation has only improved since we started using graphite, which is something I can`t say for all the other `wonder drugs` we`ve tried.

Operation has only improved since we started using graphite

maybe the graphite particles are facilitating contact between dirty loco  wheels and the rails? If rails oxidize enough to cause a problem they are still gonna oxidize under graphite as it's not an air tight coating. Maybe looking at the wheels would be an alternative to adding more stuff on the track? ......DaveB

we`ll see

I`m not sure if other issues will crop up; time will tell.  Trevor has been operating his layout for years with only graphite on the rails and says he never needs to clean the track.  We will see if we have the same experience.

But what about slippage?

What is the ruling grade on the layout? Have you noticed any loss of traction?

pqe

no slipping

Quite the contrary, since we got rid of NoOx and started using graphite instead, our traction has improved on our helices.  There has been no downside to the graphite at all so far.

See also

Neolube

Has anyone tried Neolube, a graphite in alcohol suspension available from Micro Mart?

Could be another step of a process.

Gleam+no-ox+graphite=even better results.

Gleam to help reduce the build up.

No-ox to reduce corrosion.

Graphite to assist electrical contact.

Could be a good combination, but none of these will keep dust and other atmospheric stuff off the rails. There will always be the need to vacuum or run a dust buster pad between sessions.

What has been shared here from the original post is that the rails were treated with no-ox and graphite used on top of it. So one cannot determine if the graphite alone is successful in this case as the graphite was not used on untreated rails. The no-ox penetrates the rails so is never removed entirely from them.

What is your grade?

25 years of live-fire testing says...

Dear John P, ggnars,

John, I have never used No-Ox, and can confirm graphite, (from a clean rails + wheels starting position) works standalone.

Ggnars, have tested and deployed graphite on scale/gauges N, HOn30, HOn3, HO, On18, On2, On30, On3, On42, O 2R, and Gn15 with consistent improvement over "naked rails" under all conditions. These deployments, which have been far more than just "test trials", have been under constant analysis for decades now, with the earliest examples dating back to the late 1980s.

I've gone on record here and on other fora noting that yes, if your trains are only _just_ pulling the grades on your layout on _dry_ _untreated_ rail, they _will_ slip with the addition of graphite. (Have not ever consciously tested graphite-on, or graphite-after any other form of rail treatment, never wanted or needed to, WET treatments, Ugh!)

However, in real terms, a Mantua mallet can standing-start an actual 2 kilos of metal MDC logcar train (with stock MDC trucks and plastic wheels) on a 2% grade on graphite, so adhesion is only really a concern of your loco torque+Adhesion-VS-trailing-load+rolling-resistance balance is already at or near the limits AFAIKS.

Use the MRH-Google search for "klyzlr graphite", pretty sure most common questions have already been covered...

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/16814

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/16295

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/3229

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

I am going to try this.

Yup. I'm in. decision made.

Sharpening my pencil

Jurgen

Was there a reason for switching away from the No-Ox?

I did a one year test and found that the graphite was good for a year with no other track cleaning, the No-Ox was still going strong after a year, and the untreated rails needed cleaning 6 times in that same 1 year time period.

I concluded that the No-Ox treatment worked the best, but that graphite was a close second.

Brent

Calgary

In my experience, graphite exhibits resistance....

Obviously it works in this application but it may be of interest to note that I use to use a mixture of powdered graphite and enamel paint to make resistance wheelsets . I would mix the graphite with the paint and use a little to bridge the insulating gap on a metal wheelset.   I used this for DCC detection of rolling stock when I was in N scale. After a little experimentation with how much to use, it worked quite well.

Michael

Old School

Graphite is old school. I remember my dad using graphite in his HO scale layout in the 50's.It used to do the job. So far I am pleased with No-Ox.

Sensible graphite application VS Excess application

Dear Michael,

Agreed, almost any conductive material exhibits resistance-over-distance at room temp (25deg C).

However, when you consider that a (exceedingly thin) layer of graphite on top of a freshly-cleaned railhead has but-microns of "insulated distance" between "surface contact points", the distance rail <> railhead <> graphite layer <> wheel tread at any randomly-selected point on a layout is soo miniscule as to present an almost unreadable resistance value (certainly less than 1ohm, and well under what my 3 and-a-half digit DMM readout can display...).

Think of the distance between railhead<> graphite-layer contact points as being analogous to the distance between track feeders
(the rail is the track buss,
the graphite layer is the rail,
the contact points between rail surface and graphite layer are the feeders).

If however, we are talking about the situation where a modeller mixes graphite powder with metholated spirits or mineral turpentine, and then slathers the resulting "paste" on every possible railhead surface,

then yes, certainly the excessively accumulated graphite can present a "low, yet measurable, resistance joint",
to the point where drawing significant current accross the graphite joint/link/bridge can cause it to heat and glow.

Believe this post covered the situation?
http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/16814#comment-134033 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

"...tain't no school....."

Dear Nick,

"...tain't no school like the Old Skool..."
(Apologies to fans of "The Incredibles" and "RockNRolla" movies)

Sometimes the most appropriate solution for a stated problem is the one which the Old Blokes worked out long ago,
and "us young'uns" have since forgotten about...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS "...Give a low 5 to the old-skool..."

old school love

1 mic,  a couple 12's, 6 drums & a couple bells is all you had to make a couple rails......

   Hi Prof, in that magnified view above what is the microscopic role of graphite between a clean rail and a clean wheel or a dirty rail and a dirty wheel?  Is it a mechanical facilitator somehow? Unless it's a completely airtight bonded coating the rail will still oxidize if it is prone to that so how does the graphite make the oxidization less of a problem? Seems like it could be finding the holes in the dirt stuck on wheels and making an electrical  route from rail to wheel metal? .....DaveB

How deep down the rabbit hole do we want to go?

Dear Dave,

I have to admit I've never looked at nickel-silver rail oxidisation at a microscopic level like some of our members here onlist, (shout out to LK&O Alan ). I guess I feel like a science student at the start of an exercise. We have observable reproducible symtoms, which have been "in the field" tested over decades. We also have a number of hypothesis which could explain the symtoms and effects. 

Without the actual microscopic images to confirm/deny the theory, my personal suspicion is:

- As a dry treatment, graphite is unlikely to be able to form a perfectly-continuous air-tight oxygen barrier
(I can't blow air-bubbles thru a stream/sheet of graphite powder,
nor can I get a vacuum-seal on a sheet of glass which has a load of graphite dust covering it's surface)

- However, we can prove (thru naked-eye observation of both operation, wheelsets, and rail surface) that graphite applied with a single swipe from a 2B "woodless pencil" on one section of track can easily be transmitted to the wheelset treads, and spread around/across the layout via train movement.
(Bonus points: a graphite-coated rail looks less "gleaming yellowish" and more "dull grey silver", which tends to be less visually intrusive and more in-keeping with weathered rail aesthetic).

- If we accept that electricity can track accross a layer of graphite, then the idea that the graphite is acting as a "conductive surface" accross the top of (miniscule, esp immediately after a decent PECO trackblock cleaning?) sections of oxidisation, and creating conductive-layer "jumpers" between (varying size) areas of non-oxidised conductive surface seems viable, and gels with observed behaviour.

- Whether (2B?) graphite is more or less physically/mechanically hard-wearing than surface-based oxygen contamination/oxidisation on Nickel-Sliver rail is unknown to me at this time.

However, we do know that graphite on rail surfaces can coat passing wheel treads, and said coated wheeltreads can transfer/deposit graphite on rail.

Whether that means that the oft-stated "run trains more often = less oxidisation issues" is due to the oxidiation being polished-away with the passing friction of the wheels while the graphite remains,
(IE graphite is harder than NS-surface-borne oxide),

or whether the effective "continual re-distribution/re-application of graphite by passing graphite-coated wheels", simply masks/over-coats any developing oxidisation occurances with more "layer of conductive material" in realtime
(compounding/related issue as above, does graphite exclude contact between Oxygen and Nickel-Silver?
If not, does oxide which forms on top of a graphite layer "harder-wearing" than oxide that forms directly on a clean NS surface? 

Oh dear, why do I feel like we've taken the Red Pill???

is again also up-for-analysis...

Whatever the case, at the risk of sounding like a cracked record, it's been proven for my situation and layouts, and the layouts of many modellers I know of accross Australia (from Sydney in the East to Perth in the West, and from Brisbane in the north to Tasmania in the South, so no lack of varying temperatures/humidities/proximity-to-sea/saltwater/average-airborne-dust/layout-construction conditions under test) for some decades now.

As such, personally, I'm not actually greatly concerned about the microscopic "how it works",
although if someone wants to visit Sydney Aust to do the analysis,
I'd be more than happy to provide verifiably "clean rail" and "graphite-treated" test subjects...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS linking back to some of the earlier posts, I wonder what the comparative adhesion/friction values are of 
- raw NS rail <> NS wheel
- graphited NS rail <> NS wheel
- CRC'd NS rail <> NS wheel
- Railzip'd NS rail <> NS wheel
- No-Ox'd NS rail <> NS wheel