rfbranch

It’s been quite a while since I’ve posted an update on my layout as it’s been a busy few months (combine summer yardwork with the birth of our first child in August, it’s been a lifestyle adjustment!  And guess which one has taken more adjusting) but as the days have gotten shorter and the nights cooler I’m turning my attention back to my layout. 

Construction

I've decided the “TBA industry” in the upper left hand corner of my track plan will be a bulk flour terminal patterned after the prototype Brooklyn Eastern District Terminal facility. It will incorporate the same two track unloading arrangement as the prototype, so an additional turnout and parallel track need to be added. This industry will be fed by a fleet of 40’ covered hoppers (I have an ample number on hand as stand ins while I build up a fleet of airslide hoppers) which are brought in twice a day. As on the BEDT, this industry will be a railroad owned property serving the various commercial bakeries in the area and function as a commodity-specific transload facility. The structure will be simple; any combination of Pikestuff steel buildings would look great. 

%20Flour.jpg The hoppers are sitting on one of the tracks that will make up the bulk flour terminal.  The structure will flow back into the corner of the benchwork and help break up the hard right angle in the backdrop.  

 

 

 

 

 


 

What was originally planned as Riverside Waste Oil will now be a coal fired power plant (I like the name ‘Brooklyn Industrial Light and Power’… I’m moving my railroad to a NYC borough and deserting Hoboken) with coal in/ash out operations. The facility will be flush against the backdrop with a hole cut out to allow longer strings of cars (read: 4-5 cars at a time) to enter the facility and give the idea that the plant is in fact much larger than what is visible on the layout.  

I’ve seen many layouts where the industries are so physically small that make it hard to believe that they would be able to justify rail service as the goods they produce and/or raw materials they demand would not be enough to sustain things. My hope is to create a scene which overcomes that problem by inferring much larger facilities which exist outside of the modeled area with “slices” of many of the buildings in the viewable area.

k%20%232.jpg The power plant track is in the center of the picture at left.  The track will continue through the backdrop and into the staging area behind the backdrop.  The cutout to the right is for the Long Island Railroad Interchange which also serves as storage tracks for unused rolling stock.  My original plan called for far more traffic being generated from the LIRR but I now have extra room on the staging benchwork so a track for the power plant is easily accommodated. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

The transformer factory will now be an American Can Company manufacturing facility. Inbound cars will be coil cars of rolled aluminum and box cars of aluminum sheet while outbound shipments will be box cars of finished products and an occasional car of scrap metal. The tank car siding associated with the waste oil facility in my original track plan will now be a chemical delivery track for the can factory. Following the same strategy as the power plant, both of the tracks going into the manufacturing facility will punch through the backdrop with 12-20” extensions increasing the siding capacity of each to 4-5 50’ cars. 

 

pany%232.jpg This is by far the least finished portion of my layout.  The boxcars sit on what will be one of two indoor sidings in the plant.  One will be for aluminum sheet delivered in boxcars, the second will be for coil loads in coil gondolas.  The track closest to the camera will be for outbound shipments of finished product and will be outdoors with a loading dock.  The hodling tank for the chemical track can be seen in the right of the image.

 

 

 


 Operations

Carfloat Operations

My railroad will interchange with multiple Class I railroads via two carfloats, one arriving in the morning and one the evening. To model this, each operating session will represent a single shift as opposed to a full day of operation.  Each session will alternate between an “AM float” and “PM float”.  For cars destined for railroads or industries off layout (excluding my LIRR Interchange) wy waybills will have either the AM or PM float listed as their final destination so that operators plan on delivering cars to the appropriate carfloat depending on the session. I don’t know if this is at all prototypical (I haven’t seen anything in print either way, but it seems strongly implied that schedule carfloats were the norm in Thomas Flagg’s books on the subject) but it will force me to plan ahead more with my car movements as cars picked up from industries don’t automatically get routed to the float yard but instead may need to sit in storage for a session waiting for the appropriate car float to arrive. It could end up being held for even longer if it’s there is more outbound traffic than the carfloat can handle.

Typical Operating Session
Since my layout is a terminal switching railroad designed for operation by a single locomotive crew, operations should follow a pretty consistent pattern from one operating session to another:
 
  1. After departing the engine house, the locomotive picks up an idler car and unloads the car float into the adjacent carfloat yard. Once the carfloat is clear the outbound cars from the yard are in turn loaded to the carfloat for their return trip to the Class I yard. For operational purposes, I will restrict loading of the carfloat to the period of time right at the beginning of the session from the carfloat yard as opposed to coming directly from an industry to the carfloat. This is designed to imply the need to keep the carfloat on schedule. Alternatively I could use a fast clock and assign a departure time for each session. 
  2. Traffic in the Carfloat yard is sorted as necessary and pickups/deliveries to the trailing point sidings are made as required. This consists of the transload/team track facility, the bulk flower terminal, and the scrap metal yard(again, these can be found on my trackplan here). Any pickups due to be shipped out on the next car float (i.e. cars due to be shipped out on a PM float picked up during the AM shift) are taken to the carfloat yard and placed on the departure track. The rest are then stored in the secondary yard until such time that an appropriate carfloat is scheduled.
  3. The locomotive then pulls any cars destined for delivery to any facing point sidings and brings it around to the runaround track adjacent to the storage yard. After the run around move is complete, the loco makes the setouts and pickups at the printing plant, power plant, Long Island Railroad interchange and can factory. If there is more traffic than can be handled in the runaround (it has enough space for 6 50’ cars) then this is accomplished in two moves.
  4. Returning to the storage yard, the cars are sorted with traffic due for the next carfloat (i.e. if I’m working the AM shift, cars due out on the PM carfloat) are blocked together and brought back to the carfloat yard and stored with the cars dropped off during step 2. Any other cars not due on the next carfloat or that need to be stored off spot are kept in this storage yard to allow maximum flexibility when loading/unloading the carfloat.
  5. Once the outbound cards in the carfloat yard are properly sorted for the next shift, the locomotive is returned to the engine house and the crew ties up for the day.
Following the above procedure and running at scale speeds of 5-10MPH for most moves (my railroad will have a speed limit of 15 MPH on all track and a 5MPH speed restriction on street trackage) my test operating sessions have run 1-2 hours length without feeling artificially long. I should also note I’ve tweaked my locomotive decoder so that acceleration, deceleration, and brake rates are fairly slow so that any changes in speed or direction as well as accurately spotting cars takes some precision and planning on the operators part. Having a two hour operating session on an 8’x12’ without it getting too “roundy roundy” has me VERY satisfied with the track plan I’ve developed.
 
Traffic Management
One issue of concern has been the ability of my carfloats to deliver enough traffic to sustain the industries on my railroad. A better layout designer than I would have anticipated this issue long before building their benchwork and laying track, but I didn’t give this much serious thought until well along in construction and I think I have luckily dodged a bullet. Here is my thought process and how I tested my trackplan:
  • By design (a railroad who’s primary connection to the outside world is via a carfloat interchange) my railroad can only accept 9-10 incoming cars per operating session. Using this information, I realized that in total my railroad is limited to a total of 18 cars (two carfloat operations totaling 9 cars per shift) in and out of the layout each day.
  • I made a list of every location that can require delivery of a car on my layout making an entry for each siding or distinct track location. I laid out the days of the week along one row and then listed each spot location along the top and ended up with the spreadsheet below.

%20empty.JPG 

  • With the framework in place, I started adding car quantities in the grid according to the number of cars that I wanted to deliver to each siding over the course of a “week”. The right hand column contains a simple formula subtracting the sum of cars allocated to each industry for that day from the total capacity on the carfloats.
 Capacity.JPG 

With this basic test I am confident that I can generate enough traffic to supply my larger industries as needed. This is an easy test for anyone who wants to test if they have enough staging (as that is all my carfloats really are, on-layout staging) then this is quick and easy way to do it. You still need to do the math on the capacities of your sidings, yards and mainline (Joe has a great tool for measuring this here) to ensure that your layout plan will allow for workable op sessions, but this was a simple exercise that answered some basic, fundamental questions about the feasibility of my layout design.

Final Thoughts and Future Projects

Overall, I’m very happy with what I’ve produced in the last year given my limitations of experience and time. I would love for things to be progressing more quickly (but I don’t know of anyone out there building a layout who doesn’t say the same thing) but after a year of working on various aspects of the layout I still take great pleasure in the project. As my daughter is slowly getting some semblance of regular sleep patterns, the major projects for me going forward will be as follows:

  • Figuring out a way to power my frogs without having to pull up all of my turnouts. This was a real rookie mistake, but after pulling up and relaying some track I want to avoid doing that again like the plague. I’m especially worried about doing it with delicate switches as I’m sure I will push something out of gauge. Any thoughts/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
  • Laying the last bit of track that I’ve outlined above. I need to pick up an extra turnout (or reduce my staging ladder by a track, as my layout design has evolved the large amounts of storage back there is no longer necessary) for the flour unloading facility but the rest are dependent upon the placement of buildings, which leads me to the next major project that needs consideration:
  • I need to start building structures. The placement of sidings for the scrap yard, power plant, can factory, and printing facility are subject to the final dimensions and positioning of the structures that they serve. In the coming weeks I’m going to start on a modest project to cut my teeth in model building: I’m going to build a large warehouse that will serve as a background building adjacent to the carfloat yard. I have a large number of Walthers Modular pieces that I ordered on sale a few months back so I am going to put them to work as I have them on hand.
  • Strategize on how to start on scenery. My first inclination would be to scenic the carfloat yard as this is a fairly simple project: I need to weather and ballast the yard, place the warehouse structure mentioned above along with a building flat or two to create some depth of field. However, if anyone has any rules of thumb about what order to scenic a railaroad I would love to hear them.

loat%232.jpg This is the first area of my layout am planning on scenicing.  The two closest tracks are placeholders until my carfloat and apron are built, as the scrap pieces of cork and foam are where my water will be. 

Looking at the yard in the rear , the stock of rolling stock boxes are located where the warehouse flat will go.  For dramatic effect, I plan on buliding a larger 6-8 story structure flush against the backdrop.  However, any suggestions as to creating the proper depth of scene would be appreciated.

This post ended up being much longer than I ever planned and covered a lot of topics, but thanks to those that read this long and it's nice to post again finally!  Please share your thoughts if any, it's good to know someone is reading this besides me

Best,

Rich

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~Rich

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Proto-Freelanced Carfloat Operation, Brooklyn, NY c.1974

Reply 0
alanbaker28

Siding numbers

If you have not seen the article  , you may like to read Steve Prevette's on Traffic Flow Considerations  October 2008 Dispatcher's Office That and the previous? edition on the NH Old Colony line are fascinating to me

Reply 0
feldman718

BEDT

Very interesting.

I see and understand what you are trying to do. I am sure you'll learn alot once yo install your aprons and car float. Not bing in HO I've come to the conclusion that I will have to create my own 3 track car floats in N-Scale. I've traded a few messages about the subject with Tim Warris of Fast Tracks and am strongly considering the purchase of a #6 turnout jig. I wouldn't have to do that if Walthers would release their carfloat in N scale but, so far, they have expressed no interst in doing so. So money is money is being saved for that jig and the supplies of code 55 track that will be needed to go along with it.

Since you been looking at the Flagg books, I am sure you noticed that there were a number of places that featured car float aprons alng the East River waterfront on the Brooklyn Queens side. Most have disappeared over the years since car float operations ended in the late 1960s and 1970s. One of those locations has been turned into a park that still preserves the aprons though the area itself has seen the removal of the tracks, or at least them being covered over by concrete. Its located in Long Island City and is accesable by public transit. I haven't been there but the information sits in a stack of reseach I did on my layout.

There are only two places in Brooklyn with functioning car float aprons: Bay Ridge and Bush Terminal. Only Bush Terminal has actual car float operations. The Bay Ridge car foat facility was newly built in the 1980s when it was thought that it would remain the center of car float operations on this side of the East River but that never came to be so it sits unused but from what I understand it has been maintained in operating condition.

What you are doing sounds more like something that would fit in Bush Terminal operations since it is home to many businesses that might be ideal for what youwant to do on your layout. It's worth a look, at least, in my opinion.

Irv

Reply 0
Scarpia

Buildings

Rich, if you haven't thought of it already, maybe you should think about doing cardboard/paper mockups of buildings first (instead of real construction). That may help you hone the space a bit.

 

 


HO, early transition erahttp://www.garbo.org/MRRlocal time PST
On30, circa 1900  

 

Reply 0
rfbranch

Protoype & Mock Ups

Irv-

Thanks for your note; I have your message from last night (I ended up staying up late getting this post done, for the record pasting from Word is NOT easy) so I'll get back to you later today but you make some great suggestions.  I'm only an hour from the locations you mention so it might be worth a trip one day.

Scarpia-

You make a good point and it's something I have been starting to do in a bit of a non-traditional fashion.  In my last picture with the carfloat I have a number of empty rolling stock boxes stacked up.  The idea there was to create the visual effect of a bulding flat against the bcakdrop behidn the tracks, but to your point it doesn't give the right feel as to what the buidlings will look like.  I think it might be time to break down soem of those boxes for the Pack 'N Play and build some mock ups!  Appreciate your comments, I follow what you do pretty closely and I've been more than impressed with your results.

Alan-

Are you referring to the October MR?  I quickly looked for it this morning but I coudln't find my copy in "the office" but I will take a look tonight.  I'm actaully reasonably happy with my layout capacity (in that respect I think I lucked out) and also with my track arrangements (I think I went through about 15-20 versions of my track planand I had A LOT of help from expereinced people on various forums) I jsut thought I would share the analysis tool that I put together; it's crude but I thought it worthwhile to share how I came up with the idea.

 

Thanks to you both.

~rb

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~Rich

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Proto-Freelanced Carfloat Operation, Brooklyn, NY c.1974

Reply 0
feldman718

BEDT

If you're only an hour away from the locations I talked about you aren't far from me either. So we might ne abe to get together or visit to see our respective under construction layouts and share info. I see you actually have trackwork down, I don't yet but I'll be at that point for at least part of my layout. Right now I am putting plaster cloth down. It's slow going as I am both taking my time with it and being careful not to create ant flooding anywhere. I do a diagonal row a day primarily because that's how long it takes for a row to dry. It's messy as well but so far I have had no disasters,

I would apprciate it If you can send me your contact info. I'll sne you mine as well.

BTW, the Long Island Railroad only does commuter trave now. It's freight operations were taken over by the New York and Atlantic Railroad in 1999 and no has looked back since. I thnk New York may switch Bush Terminal these days as I do know they also handle freight traffic in Greenville Yard and along the rails in Brooklyn and Queens that I am modeling.

Irv

Reply 0
CAR_FLOATER

NY Harbor Ops

Rich -

Looks like you are well on your way, and being a NY Harbor model RR'er, I like what you are doing.

If you haven't already come across it, I'd like to suggest checking out two websites - My friend Dave Ramos, who is modeling the LVRR, Erie and NYC in Manhattan in 1947, with heavy carfloat and terminal switching action at http://www.nthrr.com, and my Yahoo group for my layout, the Lehigh Valley Harbor Terminal RY (listed below in my signature). Dave and I are both very into operations, and like to try to recreate the way the railroads "did their thing". Hopefully, we can help you and in the process, you can give us ideas by asking us questions about things we might not have ourselves considered.

I am sorry if I missed it, but what era are you shooting for? I was kind of sorry to read that you "abandoned" your Hoboken Shore concept (what  neat little RR), but Brooklyn is neat, too, and I once considered a ficticious Brooklyn Terminal RR before I decided to model the prototype.

Looking forward to talking to you more,


Ralph

Reply 0
CAR_FLOATER

Building Brooklyn

Rich -

After going back over your post in detail, I thought I'd try to respond to some of your bullet point questions...

  • Figuring out a way to power my frogs without having to pull up all of my turnouts. This was a real rookie mistake, but after pulling up and relaying some track I want to avoid doing that again like the plague. I’m especially worried about doing it with delicate switches as I’m sure I will push something out of gauge. Any thoughts/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Are you using commercial turnouts? I am (Peco and Atlas), and have had no issues with unpowered frogs. Unless you are using REALLY tiny (44-tonner) locos, I don't see a problem. As long as you have feeders every 2-3 feet, electrical continuity should not be a problem. I use mostly SW and S-type locos, and the ONLY problem I have is where my multiple Atlas diamond crossings are one after the other, but again, I wired the living daylights outta them to get them power to keep my switchers from stalling as they roll over two or three in a row.

  • I need to start building structures. The placement of sidings for the scrap yard, power plant, can factory, and printing facility are subject to the final dimensions and positioning of the structures that they serve. In the coming weeks I’m going to start on a modest project to cut my teeth in model building: I’m going to build a large warehouse that will serve as a background building adjacent to the carfloat yard. I have a large number of Walthers Modular pieces that I ordered on sale a few months back so I am going to put them to work as I have them on hand.

Cardboard or other cheap materials work, too before you spend time, money and a nice kit on something you aren't happy with. I was lucky, I have a friend that is a professional model builder, and he took regular everyday corrugated cardboard and made two 2 foot covered piers that look fastastic for me, and are nice models in their own right. As for kits that are out there on the market, I too plan on using the Walther modular kits, and I also plan on using many of the popular Walthers kit from years past, but opened up to be bigger, and changed around ever so slightly, so as to keep people from saying "Oh, that is the Walthers Hardwood Furniture kit, isn't it?". I have narrow benchwork with long runs, so building flats are the order of the day for me. Taking to Champion Packing Works kits and combining them skillfully can make for a neat building.

  • Strategize on how to start on scenery. My first inclination would be to scenic the carfloat yard as this is a fairly simple project: I need to weather and ballast the yard, place the warehouse structure mentioned above along with a building flat or two to create some depth of field. However, if anyone has any rules of thumb about what order to scenic a railaroad I would love to hear them.

Well, like you, I used insulation foam for my base, but I did not go and cover it with cork (no need to). Before I laid any track, I painted it a "dark dirt" brown, then put the track down. Now rememeber, you are modeling low-traffic yard trackage, so there is really no such thing as a nice sharp ballast shoulder like you might think of as you see on most layouts - It just isn't gonna happen here. The track is "crappy", and so is the roadbed. I laid mine down flat, and then to simulate cinders, I used black sanded tile grout. Once you wet it, it's stuck, because of what it is. just spread it out and you are good. No need to make nice neat lines. for the rest of the ground, I will use more paint to attach whatever dirt/grass product is handy to finish the surrounding "ground". In my friend Dave's situation though, he models the city pier side and streets, so he has to model Belgian Brick/Cobblestone, with track in the street. He went with printed paper attached to Masonite. See his website for detailed photos. Oh and as far as building flats to get forced perspective, I suggest picking up John Pryke's "Building City Scenery For Your Model Railroad" by Kalmbach".....It is the perfect resource for just this. 

Hope this helps some,

Ralph

Reply 0
rfbranch

While I moved away from the

Hi Ralf-

Thanks for taking the time to put together such a detailed reply. I’m familiar with Dave Ramos’ layout and website (as well as your work through Craig’s Housatonic page) and have used that extensively to research the type of operation that I am looking to do. While I’m not familiar with your layout (I’ve applied to join your yahoo group) I am modeling a later era than Dave in that I’ve set my layout semi-loosely in 1974 (basically pre-Conrail, but I’m not 100% strict on everything). I grew up in the area in the 70’s and 80’s and to me there is a great story to be told in the decaying urban environment of the time.

While I moved away from the Hoboken Shore and to the BET due to limited information on the prototype, the other reason I took up the BEDT was the motive power. I wanted sound, and shoehorning a sound decoder into a 44 Tonner didn’t seem possible with my current set of skills. Even with that said, I cannot claim that I am trying to model a prototype with what I’m doing. My primary motive power is a Broadway Limited Imports SW7 which never ran on the BEDT either, so I stray from my template where I need.

On the turnouts, I’m using all commercially available code 83 turnouts and track(all Atlas #4’s with 4 Peco #5’s for my runaround and 3-4 Shinohara Wyes) but I am having issues with stalling over the frogs, although almost exclusively on the Atlas turnouts. Like you, I have a ton of feeders (about every two feet) and with a few exceptions there is power on each side of every rail joiner (I need to wire up my yard ladders a little more to see if this doesn’t solve my issues).

I suspect the issue may be the height profile on the Atlas turnouts. As the locomotive goes over the frog, it looks like it is “lifted” at bit so I think solid contact with the rail is lost. Rather than trying to correct the profile issue, my thinking was powering the frog might be a more expedient process. But before I do this I purchased a CXM cleaner and I’m going to scrub my rails down so clean that surgery could be performed in there as I want to eliminate any chance this is an issue with dirt on my track (I think I still have spackle dust on the rails from when I  constructed my backdrop).

I have the Pryke book already, it’s gotten me this far and I concur for anyone modeling what you and I are doing this should be required reading. It’s the best $20 you can spend when building an urban layout. I did want to ask you about your use of grout as ballast. I’ve been toying with that idea as I want to replicate this look for my carfloat yard, and I keep coming back to the idea that grout would really fit the bill.  Looking at various photos, my suspicion is that the tracks were laid on a thin ballast of cinders back when then railroads used steam and were never not maintained much afterwards.  Alternatively, I was looking at using this ballast with some sifted dirt mixed in, but I'll take a look at your results. 

Again, many thanks for taking time in replying!

~Rich

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~Rich

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Proto-Freelanced Carfloat Operation, Brooklyn, NY c.1974

Reply 0
CAR_FLOATER

Brooklyn Layout Design

Rich, glad to have helped, and glad to make your aquaintance. I see I can't hide out there on the internet!

Don't worry about not modeling a prototype. By following the prototype and making a cedible model of the real thing is perfectly OK. It's when people start building a NY Harbor-based layout and put a model of an Agway feed mill in the middle of it that I begin to start calling the "Prototype Police"!

I also understand about the problems of shoving sound into a 44-tonner - I have no desire to torture myself trying, either! LOL! As for lack of info, I have to disagree, the info on the Hoboken Shore is certainly out there, but that is neither here nor there. Brooklyn is neat, and you can "do things" in that environment that would be out of place in a New Jersey-based environment. By keeping to prototypical "baselines" for operations and industries, you should have the makings of a great layout.

As far as track goes, yes, clean track is key, especially for what we are doing. Dave Ramos's track is all handlaid (well, most of it is), and thus clean track is key since it is less forgiving. Of course, Commercial track isn't always constructed to the fine tollerances that one can build into handlaid track, but other than that, it's all the same. The only problems I see forthcoming on mine are, as I said the multitude of crossings. We;ll have to see!

Ralph

Reply 0
rfbranch

This conversation parallels a

This conversation parallels a comment/request I made on the feedback on Marty McGuirk's article, but I'd love to take a look at the resources for the HBS that are out there.  What I have available (basically this website) is pretty limited in terms of trying to figure out how to designed a model railroad.  Figuring out where to find sources is one of the hardest parts in following a prototype for me, so I'd love to know what other information you have available or even general strategies for smaller railraod like the HBS.

I was also in your yahoo group and coudln't find any images of the grout used as ballast.  I'm trying to emulate the ballast in the image in my previous post and I've been long suspicious that sanded grout would be a great candidate for ballast but before I tried it out myself I was hoping to take a gander at some photos of your work.

Many thanks.

 

~Rich

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~Rich

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Proto-Freelanced Carfloat Operation, Brooklyn, NY c.1974

Reply 0
Cuyama

HBS information

What I have available (basically this website) is pretty limited in terms of trying to figure out how to designed a model railroad

I guess it's a matter of opinion, but that website provides a lot of information about the HBS. I've used it as a primary source in designing three different layouts for the Hoboken Shore (all for the same client -- three different spaces*).

Many larger real-life railroads have a lot less documentation available, believe me!

What are the additional questions you feel must be answered to design a layout based on the Hoboken Shore?

*One of my designs for the HBS was published in MRH Jan, 2009 ( Issue #1). That plan and another smaller shelf plan are also found  here on my website.

Reply 0
CAR_FLOATER

HBSR

Rich -

I had posted a reply, but for whatever reason, it got lost in cyber land, and do not have the time (or brain power!) right now to try to reconstruct it.

Suffice to say that I have not posted any grout ballast photos on my group, because I can't find what I did with them.

In regards to the HBSR, I wil lfollow up later with a detailed reply, but quickly - Look into joining the Lay out Design SIG and the Operations SIG......Also, a book on the Hobo Shore by Benjamin Burnhart.....And lastly, do a Google search on Weehawkwn maps, and see what you get......Here what I found -

Reply 0
Cuyama

HBS maps

There is a very good map on the site already referenced, along with a number of photos and other information ...

One can also enlarge portions of this map to see more details on that same  HBS site

The New Jersey Midland Railroad Historical Society site also has a few HBS photos

Reply 0
Scarpia

Mockups

Rich,

sorry to deviate from the research discussion, but I was wondering if this software might be worth it for you to flesh out scene.

Evan Design's Model Builder


HO, early transition erahttp://www.garbo.org/MRRlocal time PST
On30, circa 1900  

 

Reply 0
CAR_FLOATER

Maps

Rich -

The Port Series maps are great resources, but without the corresponding key book (all those numbers and shapes on the maps mean something!), they aren't much good beyond telling you where the tracks went. I am lucky enough to have a WW2 era "code book" to go along with my 1928 and 1950 map books. It is not bedtime reading!

The older property maps like the Sanborn Fire Insurance maps give you data on building shape and structure, while sometimes (9 times outta 10) sacrificing the actual track alignments. They are color coded to show the different kinds of building materials. These can be found in most large libraries, but will have newer (actually quite old) pages pasted upon the old ones as correction were made, sometime covering up important details.

And of course, if you can find them, railroad valuation maps. The Hobken ones are out there, only becuase I happen to know the person who has them.

All in all, with all the right tools, if you can get ahold of them, you can have as realistic a layout as your space (and all those other things) allow you to.

Ralph

Reply 0
Cuyama

additional resources

but without the corresponding key book (all those numbers and shapes on the maps mean something!), they aren't much good beyond telling you where the tracks went.

I found that with the accompanying photos and text in the web site, I could identify almost everything of any consequence.

I would still be interested to hear what else the original poster felt he needed for an HBS layout. In anything but a gymnasium-sized space, we're going to be forced to focus on a few signature industries. For the HBS, most of these are pretty easy to figure out from the maps and other information on that site.

I'm not saying all the other items you list are not important sometimes -- I use them all on various projects, along with Google Earth, Terraserver-USA (very helpful, since the topos sometimes capture Fallen Flag RR alignments), bing maps (was LiveSearch), ORERs, etc., etc.

But personally I think it's easy to become wrapped around the axle, paralyzed waiting for "one more" piece of data. In the end, the space constraints of the typical layout room mean we that we make many compromises and that last tidbit of protoype info just may not be that critical.

The whole discussion's probably moot since the original poster seems to have moved on to another prototype anyway.

Reply 0
CAR_FLOATER

Getting Stuck

Byron -

I agree completely.......If I had waited for some of the bits of info I have gotten since I started by layout 8 years ago, I would not have one today! Some very key operational bits that have influenced my design time and time again, have only come up until I was well along, or when they did finally come to light, gave me the gumption I needed to complete a particularly troublesome project or design aspect. It certainly can be a double edged sword!

While I certainly support Rich's new Brooklyn theme, I too am "troubled/confused" by the desire to "cut and run" from the Hoboken theme, just because of the difficulties encountered in design, but I understand, too. Thus, while I wish he has "stayed the course" in Hoboken, I understand the locale thematic change. Hey, at least it's still NY Harbor! I wish I has come across Rich's blog sooner, maybe I could have inspried him to stay with his original theme.

Regarding the "magic key code book", yes, you might have deduced some things from it, but it also tells you super-neat things like construction details, ownership, dimensions, useage, ect that ya just can't get off the map.....In all, the "perfect layout table companion"!

Ralph

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feldman718

BEDT

Personally, I am not disappointed that Rich changed from Hoboken to Brooklyn but purely for selfish reasons. It gives me an opportunity to find another person within an hour's drive with whom I can share both information about the area and its history of carfloat operations but also a possibility that we can have some interchange of traffic on our respective layouts.

Rich is certainly a more experienced model railroader than I am but I probably have some information that he doesn't. So we can each learn from each other and teach each other as well. I also have the advantage in beingclser to the actual sites than is Rich. But you know how it is, when something is close you usually dpn't bother seeing it  unless there is a god reason. Now I may have a reason.

Irv

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CAR_FLOATER

Change In Location

Hey Rich -

Looking back at my last post, I see that my comments could be taken out of context a little.....While I certainly think that the HBS would have been a great choice, I do not think any less of your revised plans, far from it. I understand your reason for your choice, it was well explained earlier. I guess I mean to say that I just think it would have made for an even neater layout had you stuck with it, and I mean that because it is such a cool prototype. Now, Brooklyn has not been "done to death" either, but there are some neat Brooklyn-based layouts out there. Now let me also say that I am NOT trying to confuse you and "guilt" you into changing back, no way! Hey, maybe someday you WILL build a HBS layout, right?  Build the "BEDT" and enjoy it, by all means. Heck, I recently went through a "why did I choose this, maybe I shoulda done something different" myself, only I am WAYYY to far into the project to change now, and my freinds who have worked on it would KILL me!

Just wanted to let you (and everyone else) what I was trying to say before.

Keep up the good work, and I am looking forward to the next update!

Ralph

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rfbranch

Glad to see I could generate some discussion

Hi all-

Apologies for the slow reply on this, I’ve been out of town for a few days. Thanks you for your comments, but I can tell from the puzzled replies I’m getting that I didn’t articulate my design and construction goals all that well. From the start, I never planned on having what I would consider a prototype railroad.


If you look back at my initial post about my layout, I referred to my layout as a Hoboken Shore inspired layout but I always planned on deviating from that prototype when it served my goals. My goal for this railroad is to learn the various skills necessary to build a larger layout in the future based on the Delaware and Hudson.


When I need to depart from the prototype (as an example, all of my industries are freelanced) I do it freely and without reservation. I’ve only used prototypes to give myself a framework to work with as opposed to trying to think up everything from scratch. In essence, I haven’t so much “deserted” the HBS and moved onto the BEDT as I have chosen to cherry pick more details from the BEDT than the HBS. When finished, I don’t plan on calling my pike anything more than a freelanced railroad which is inspired by various prototypes that had rail marine operations in the New York area.


To answer Byron’s question, maybe my expectation of accuracy for a prototype railroad is unrealistic. Reviewing that site, I get some decent pictures of various parts of the railroad during the NMRA excursion and some good roster shots.


However, I feel like it doesn’t include much of anything about the operations of the railroad (did they only operate a single locomotive at a time? If they had an interchange with the Erie, what drove the decision to take on the time and expense of carfloat operations etc.) or much of any specifics on the railroad’s customers.


Some large customers like Maxwell house are simpler to research online, but a lot of the others are a bit more esoteric. I would like to avoid having generic structures simply receiving boxes of “stuff” (I’ve seen some layouts with cars with that listed as lading for on-layout industries) because I don’t have more details of what was really there.


For me, I need my railroad to be a living place with believable supply and demand that I don’t feel like I’ve made up in my mind, or at least is based on plausible research. Perhaps I’ve paralyzed myself waiting for that key piece of information that seems critical in my mind but in reality only requires a little intuition to bridge.


At any rate, it’s an interesting point that you bring up and I’m glad my post was able to stir the discussion! To me, as someone who is relatively new to the hobby, learning how to research a prototype is something that is seldom discussed. It would be interesting to know where people have made compromises over the years balancing prototype fidelity against available knowledge and the need to make progress on one’s project. If I were working true to prototype it’s pretty clear to me decisions would need to be made to keep my project going forward so as not to stall over details that there might not be a way to discover.


Also, Scarpia many thanks for your suggestion on the mockup software. While it costs a few bucks, it might be worth saving the time and effort to photocopy my kits sections to create templates for mock ups!
 

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~Rich

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Proto-Freelanced Carfloat Operation, Brooklyn, NY c.1974

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