Older design turnouts...

Dear Omar,

The issue you are facing is that this is one of the original "Streamline" range, which was engineered loooooooong before the concepts of "DCC friendly turnouts" (or even "DCC Control", for that matter), existed...

As such, and unlike the newer PECO HO Code 83 "US geometry" range, these turnouts do not have built-in gaps/isolation or jumpers for quick.easy conversion to "DCC friendly" state.
(Literally, when these turnouts say "ElectroFrog", they mean
"Electrically continuous, from the leading top of Both switchrails,
along both closure rails,
thru the common frog,
and out to the heel end of both diverging rails")

The "Good" news is that the throw distance
(Distance the switchrails move side<> side)

on these older-design turnouts is significant large,
to the point that it's virtually impossible for a correctly-gauged NMRA wheelsets to short from:
- stockrail
- wheel tread
- wheel flange
- backside of wheel
- switchrail

unless something catastrophic like a derailment has occured.

Ergo, for "quick n dirty" deployment, simply:
- use normal metal joiners on the Toe (or "switchrail") end of the turnout
- use normal metal joiners on the Stockrails at the Heel end
- use plastic/insulating joiners on the 2 rails coming off the frog
- wire one of the tortoise switches as a "frog switching" system,
- and solder it to the exposed section of rail web visible just ahead of the frog on your "flipped over" picture.

This will not technically make a "DCC-friendly" turnout, in that the "open" switchrail will be of opposite polarity to the stockrail. However, as above, it would take either:
- a seriously narrow-in-gauge wheelset
- a wheelset with crazy-wide treads
- or a derailment

to cause an issue.

If you do absolutely wish to have a "fully DCC friendly" conversion, do all of the above, AND:
- cut insulating gaps in the closure rails
(the rails leading to the tip/nose of the frog),
between sleepers 2 and 3 from the Toe End of the guardrails

This will leave at least 1-sleeper-length of rail between where that "frog switch wire connection" is soldered, and the gaps, with the frog and Diverging Rails still "powered" via the tortoise "frog switch".

However, it also leaves the the majority of the closure rails, and the switch rails isolated, or electrically dead.

To resolve this:
- use short lengths of NWSL SuperFlex wire or similar,
and jumper the closure rails to their adjacent stock rails.

This ensures that the closure and switchrails are now "repowered", but also that an open Switchrail is the same polarity as it's switchrail. As such, if a (rediculously narrow-in-gauge, or excessively wide-treaded) wheel "shorts" between the stockrail and open switchrail, electrically there will be no issue...

I hope this helps...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

And don't forget you have to

And don't forget you have to shim the guard rails of each and every one of those turnouts unless you want lo-profile wheelsets picking them about 50% of the time.

Personally, you couldn't pay me to use them. They've been an endless source of frustration on N-Trak modules.

Main rule I follow with electrofrogs

That has never failed me , unless I forget...... is to put a gap in or use and insulated rail joiner on each of the  frog rails when joining track to them.

Michael

Individual's experiences...

Dear Barr,

...and funnily enough, I've used stock PECO Streamline Code 80 turnouts exclusively in HOn30, using a majority of "repuposed" N scale mechs (Life Like/P2k SW1200s make great Class A Climax mechs) and Kadee/Atlas wheelsets under logcars and disconnects, with no issues and no guardrail tweaking required...

Guess it's horses-for-courses...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS Out of interest, if not PECO, what do you use on the modules? ME turnouts? Handlaid? Other?

" if not PECO, what do you use ?"

Hi Prof , in my limited N scale experience I've found Micro engineering turnouts to be more trouble than Atlas code 55 turnouts and my hand laid to be better than both  but given the time required to build them I'd go with Atlas if they are in stock. I haven't tried Peco or Kato but they both look more toy train oriented at first glance but if you are using them as HOn3 the tie width and spacing might look better? ......DaveB

For N-Trak, where Code 80 is

For N-Trak, where Code 80 is the standard, I use Atlas (no switch machine) with a Caboose ground throw, or DPDT slide switch. N-Trak standards don't allow handlaid turnouts or crossings in the specs - I've seen modules where they couldn't lay the set track turnouts and crossings correctly, you don't want them trying to handlay turnouts.

For my home layout and BeNdTrack modules, I use Atlas Code 55 for everything. I skip the #5s, using only the larger turnouts. I've never had a problem with them, and they've got live frogs so I can even run my tiny 3 axle switchers over them.

The problem with the PECO turnouts comes, as I mentioned, with the N scale lo-profile wheelsets, which have become a lot more popular with the advent of the Atlas Code 55 track. The problem with wheels hitting the spike heads wasn't the spikes, but the non-NMRA-compliant pizza cutter flanges on the wheels. That's why MicroTrains has gone to a smaller flange now.

Those SW 1200 mechanisms have wheels with smaller flanges than the pizza-cutters, but larger than the lo-profiles, so it never was an issue with the PECO turnouts. I imagine the longer wheelbase might help, too. (Longer than the standard N scale freight trucks)

I've got the Atlas Lo-Profile metal wheelsets on my 5 unit Thrall container cars, and when going though a facing PECO turnout, over half of them will pick the switch if it hasn't been shimmed. That's a real problem when you're running a 12 (12x5) car container train! It's even worse if there are several modules with unshimmed switches in the layout.

The same thing happens with MT lo-profile wheelsets. The wheels are perfectly in gauge, according to the NMRA gauge - it's the turnout that's the problem.

thanks all.   PROF if i

thanks all.

PROF if i understand well you mean like this?

Close,...

Dear Omar,

Yes, that's very close. However, I would reccomend:

1 - Move the Blue "solder to Tortoise frog switch" position to the small exposed pieces of rail web, just above the _current_ Orange "gap" position.

While electrically it doesn't particularly matter, it's easier to get a decent solder joint to the bottom of the rails than it is to the "X-shaped factory wire jumpers" (ask me how I know this,,, ).

2 - Move the Orange "Cut Here" point 2 sleepers towards the Toe of the turnout.
(Note that where you have it currently shown is on the same sleeper as the tips of the plastic Guardrails.
whereas the above procedure specifically mentioned cutting the gaps 2-sleepers away from the Toe-end tips of the guard rails)

This will give you more distance between the cut gaps and the frog, and make the cutting process easier.
If you are using a fine jewellers fretsaw, maybe not an issue, but if you are intending to use a Dremel or similar, you'll appreciate the extra space to work between the various rails
(If I need the "safety room" in HO gauge, it's likely a new/full-sized Dremel cut-off disk will have a challenging time cutting only the closure rails in N gauge!)

By moving the cut location away from the frog, you also lessen the ammount of heat+force applied to the plastic frog components during the cutting process. No good making an electrically-OK turnout, if the frog geometry ends up mechanically warped or molten in the process... :-(

Oh, and don't forget to glue a piece of 0.010" styrene in each of the resulting gaps, to ensure they stay isolated,
and don't close-up anytime in the future.
(causing a dang-hard-to-find short later!)

Note, I'm deliberately putting the Soldering before the Cutting, simply because if you insert the 0-010" styrene in the cut gaps first, then apply enough heat to solder, you'll melt the styrene and render the "assured insulation" useless... (again, ask me how I know this...) 

Apart from those details, you sound like you've got the procedure pretty much firmly in-mind,
now just gotta break out the Dremel and soldering-iron, and do it...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Can i use a track cutter to

Cutting Turnouts...

Dear Omar,

Using trackcutters such as the Xuron tools http://xuron.com/index.php/main/consumer_products/3/13 is risky in this particular instance. The fact that they leave one side of the cut with a pronounced "wedge shape" means there will be serious cleaning up, and possibly even partial re-manufacturing of the turnout required. (May as well have started with a handlaid turnout, as you will have converted the "ready to run" turnout into a "kit"). 

Xuron cutters also tend to push the rails apart as they cut thru the rail. Translated into this context, you're likely to push the closure rail + switchrail down towards the toe-end of the turnout, possibly deforming the parts, and potentially placing excessive stress on the switchrail/throwbar connection.
(Cue broken throwbar... :-( ).

It is far better to use a Dremel tool with a cutoff disk,
(you're milling away the metal to form the gap, rather than trying to "push it out of the way")

or a jewelers fretsaw a la Tim Warris/fasttracks technique.

You could attempt to use a razor saw as some modellers use for track cutting, like the ones from Atlas or Micromark http://www.micromark.com/razor-saws.html

However, given the tight area you're working in, and that you only want to cut the closure rails, IMHO a fretsaw or Dremel are the most accurate and effective tools to use.

0.010" styrene strip is commonly available under the "Evergreen" brand
http://www.evergreenscalemodels.com/ . I'm unsure where you are located, but most hobby shops (not just specifically "Train shops"), carry Evergreen styrene.

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

I will use the dremel, I've

Xurons are great, just not in this particular instance....

Dear Omar,

Yes, the Xuron Railcutter is a great tool IMHO, and works great for trimming Nickel Silver flextrack and similar. (I'm using one as we speak to lay On30 code 100 track ). It just isn't "the perfect tool for the task" when what you are trying to do is cut a gap in a length of rail, where both ends of the length are fixed in place, and cannot freely "move apart from each other"...

EDIT: Totally agree with Dave B (comments crossed in the ether),
Much better to test your precision Dremel-cutting skills on a piece of "I don't care" flextrack First,
and only move to the actual mission-critical turnout once you are comfy and calm with the whole process...!!!!

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS as a close friend of mine has said on occasion
"...the faster a tool works, the more absolutely certain that what you're about to do with it is actually what you want to do!!!..."

Said another way, a handtool such as a jewelers fretsaw is actually more forgiving in precision-cut missions, because it forces you to take your time and work thru the task, instead of "Blink, and the damage is irrepairably done"...

"I will use the dremel"

Before you attack your nice switch practice on some flextrack to get the feel of how to cut rail with a dremel. It takes a certain approach to get nice narrow cuts ( use the thinnest  dremel  discs  and wear eye protection as they tend to shatter) After it's cut you  don't need to order any specific plastic to fill the gap, any plastic you can find laying around the house will work as long as it fits the gap..DaveB

"absolutely certain that what you're about to do with it "

Yep, I've found that especially applies to nail guns and chainsaws :> ) .....DaveB

I find cutting gaps with Dremel

Flexdrive option...

Dear PQ,

Yep, with my current mission (On30 handlaying turnouts) I found the flexdrive attachment to my Dremel had a far smaller handpiece, which allowed near-perpendicular cuts (the handle of the tool got smaller, but funnily enough didn't also shrink the size of my hand or fingers?!?!?!).

That said, with care (and the aforementioned practise on pieces of not-mission-critical flextrack or similar), I'm sure Omar will be able to get the job done without tears or unfortunate turnout-death....

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

DC

Would you make the same cuts for DC operation? The electric frog looks better than the insulated one but when I checked the frog rails they had the same polarity.

Analog (DC) on PECO Electrofrogs...

Dear Oldscout,

1 - If you do all the same mods mentioned above, the turnout should work equally well on Analog or DCC.

2 - However, analog is a lot more tolerant of sub-millisecond-duration momentary shorts
(such as stockrail> wheeltread> wheelback> switchrail shorts) than DCC is

3 - and many many many modellers have been running PECO Electro-frog turnouts with nothing more than;
- plastic joiners or isolating gaps on both diverging rails at the heel end of the frog
- and no furthur tweaks/mods/kitbashing required

for decades now on analog without a seconds hesitation of operational issue.

Now admittedly, such a "cavalier" attitude could be argued as throwing more reliance on the switchrail<> stockrail contact to provide power to the switchrails (both), closure rails (both), frog (common), and diverging rails (both),

(HINT! PECO turnouts have an integrated over-centre spring which ensure the turnout fully-throws, and generally has good contact pressure... )

and wiring in some form of actual frog-polarity switching 
(whether via Tortoise,
a microswitch connected to a C.I. groundthrow,
or other throw<> switch mechanically-related system)

would be generally advisable under most circumstances
(easier to deploy at initial install, rather than later on... )

but overall, those were simpler times, back on analog...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS As listed above, what you are seeing is correct,
all of the component rail of the turnout listed from toe> heel in sequence above are electrically tied together on a PECO Electrofrog turnout...