Simplicity

Nice changes Bill.  It really is freeing to trim away the fat, isn't it?

I hate to say it, but now that you've done this, I have a feeling that one remaining fictional track at Emerson isn't long for this world.  At least in my case, I found this simplification stuff very addictive, and I just kept on going until all that was left was what the prototype actually operated.

Less likely...

Joe, because of the short length of the yard, I'll be keeping the ONE extra track.

Other fictions still in place:

Noyes

• CP passing siding omitted.

Emerson

• Wye and old elevator trackage at storage track location are omitted

Letellier

• Agricore spur was recently removed,
• ADM is actually in the Winnipeg BNML yard.
• SEED-EX is actually located about a mile off layout.
• Farmers siding was recently removed
• Actual Town of Letellier is omitted from layout
• Agricore Inland Terminal is omitted

 St Jean

• Farmers Spur and Lavellee Gravel do not actually have rail service
• Passing siding omitted

Morris

• Paterson Yard has 1 track omitted
• Seed service spur is fictional
• Reversing Wye at mid-town is omitted
• Sidings for Lumber Yard, Vider Bins, MLC, and Team Track are fictional.
• Yard Tracks should be double ended

...But I am very much liking the arrangement at Emerson now.

Turnouts?

I notice quite a few short radius points, I would go minimum no5 preferably no6 where ever possible. As you state it's BNSF I assume 6axle locos and 60-70ft freight cars will be on the layout,whilst they will run through short radius points it just doesn't look right. On the real thing even older yard track is usually around a no7 at least. Still looks good I  like the open runs you have included,  particularly the run from Letellier to St Jean. I assume this area would have no back scene, makes for good photos from more than one view point. Finally what programme was used for the track plan?

Consider sidings?

I like the streamlined layout plan! One thing I would encourage is to have passing siding of at least one train length somewhere on the layout. That way you can run more then one train in opposite directions.  Sidings also work as a great place to "block" or set up car positions on a train before you take them into an industry. You may only plan on having one train at this time but in the future that could be real limiting in the future. You could probably just extend some of the current trackage to make a siding.

My two cents!

Erik

Valid Points

I have a sizable collection of Peco Turnouts that I will be using. Since I already have them, Peco SL & SR's it will likely be.

Regarding Passing Sidings, the BNML from Winnipeg to Emerson is strictly an out and back operation maintained by CN for BNSF.

A CP train will make an "in and out" appearance in Morris on occasion and the BNSF crew will be limited to Noyes where they effectively conduct a DOUBLE SAW BY with a motive power change... so passing sidings are a moot point.

That said, on the prototype, there is a limited siding at Letellier but any meets on the prototype would really happen at Morris, which is half way from Winnipeg to Emerson. The only way there could be such a meet would be if CN was using the line as a bypass for some disaster on the CN main heading East.

I understand your suggestion and logic for including such sidings but given that the layout is also limited to P2P operation... no need.

what programme was used for the track plan?

I did the track plan using CorelDraw X3

Don't want to intrude but just got to say....

That I'm really starting to gain a lot of respect for you proto guys when I see all the compromises and machinations that you have to go through  to get a viable layout plan yet still remain somewhat true to your subject of modeling. Strict prototype modeling or even proto lancing will probably never be my cup of tea but I'm finding threads like this pretty interesting lately. I'll shut up now and let you guys carry on....

Regards,

Michael

You're not intruding...

Thanks Michael, your input is always welcome.

I don't like tea. Proto-lance is my coke

As Predicted...

As predicted - More cuts have been made.

With the changes to the curve location at Letellier yesterday, I gained 6" in aisle width (up to 28.5" from the original 22.5".)

Seeing this, made me very pleased and I started considering the other pinch points. What could I do to increase aisle space without sacrificing operation? Oh! I know - cut out more fiction!

Bye Bye MLC warehouse. This structure bothered me because it was crammed into this little space with an inside loading dock and the parking lot wasn't even big enough to turn a truck around in. Gone.

What's next?

Move reality... Truck Stop structure moved to backdrop. nice. Road behind the small elevator, moved to backdrop. ok - what does that do for me? Benchwork along this wall is now 20" instead of 27" wide. Perfect!

The narrow spot at St Jean is now increased to 33" from 26".

Railfanning

Bill, I'm glad to see you enjoying these changes.  I've described the process I went through before and won't bore you with that again, but I think it's interesting that, as I experienced, many of the changes you make seem to be prompted by your railfanning visits.  I found those trips really enjoyable, and never missed the absence of additional industries, facilities, or car types on the prototype  Over time, for me, it started to sink in that I wouldn't miss them on the layout either.

Railfanning also opened my eyes to the potential that even seemingly inactive tracks had for operations, such as for short-term car storage, tying down MOW cars between track projects, etc.  On my prototype, there's a track that served a coil steel transload facility until 2002.  The transload operations went away three years before the time I model, but the track remained in place.  At first, my thought was to freelance the transload into my era.  Eventually, though, railfanning showed me that my prototype had begun to use that track for additional car storage for a large oil products company about a half-mile east of there.  Overflow cars would be tied down there, only to be moved to the company's primary facility within a day or so.  So even though there was no active customer adjacent to the track, it was a separate spot operationally, making a new and completely prototypical "customer" for the layout.  It also grew the presence of that oil company on the layout, giving me one industry with a larger footprint rather than two smaller, "model railroad sized" customers.

I want to be clear that my comments earlier weren't meant to pressure you into doing anything.  Only you know where that line exists where the fun of simplification no longer overshadows the enjoyment of the proto-freelanced additions, and once you approach that line, you should stop.  Personally, I found that process to be a five year journey where that line moved incrementally.  I'd loosen my grip on something - e.g., the active spur serving McClelland Feed & Grain that's been idle on my prototype since RI days - and simplify in that area.  However, at the same time I'd insist to myself that I'd NEVER get rid of cement service to Council Bluffs Ready Mixed, which didn't come along until about four months after my era.  I liked 2-bay cement cars too much to ever do that.  Ready Mixed lasted for quite a while in my layout plans, but eventually, even it fell away.  You may find the same for what are currently your "must haves", or you may decide to keep them if that's what you enjoy more.  Either way, that's the right answer for you.

Clarity

Not blaming you Joe

And you have not pressured me in any way. I do appreciate the input I receive here and what you describe above is right on the mark. It's amazing to see the changes my plan has taken since 2008 as I have followed and studied the prototype. Not to mention building a new space for the layout. etc. etc.

I'm certainly enjoying the ongoing discussion.

2008

Here's what the plan from 2008 looked like...

Transformation

That's quite a change Bill!  You've been on a real journey already.

The note about maximum train length on your 2008 plan made me wonder what your max is now.  Have you considered shortening that in order to lessen the need for yard trackage over and above the prototype's?  Not a huge deal, as I believe you said that Emerson is the only yard where you have an additional track, but I wondered if shorter trains and the associated shorter sidings could be used to gain aisle space or just increase open running between towns.

For comparison, I typically run around 15-18 cars max for IAIS trains, though my rendition of a detouring 110-car UP unit coal empty is 21 cars.  Those seem plenty long to my eye.  However, my layout has a lot fewer long tangent runs than yours, and I think my shorter trains are more easily broken up by the many curves, since you can rarely see the entire train in one glance.  So, you may be better off with longer trains, but I just thought I'd throw the idea out there.

Max Length

On the BNML, southbound trains are often almost a mile long.

The Emerson Yard track is about 1/4 mile long. (capacity)

My Max Length is 25 cars.

Longest track capacity in my Emerson yard is 116" or about 13 cars.

So technically i should be alright if I remove the extra track except I still feel that I want a bit more storage capacity given the artificial traffic generated by the extra industry (ADM) in Letellier.

It's the 'lance part of proto-lance

I'm quite happy with the aisle space now and the runs from town to town are log enough that it will "feel" like moving from place to place. I think I'm happy with the plan overall now.

I'm ready to start building!

I would REALLY try...

..... to get rid of the duck under. Not being a spring chicken anymore I really appreciate the convenience of getting on my knees as little as possible. But your mileage may vary. Jose.

ADM and Patterson Grain

Good point about ADM necessitating that additional track Bill.

One last thought:  I'm not sure how Patterson Grain is switched, but given the location of the Trackmobile spur/house, I'm guessing the BNML shoves empties all the way into the yard, and then for loading, the critter pulls them out of the yard and shoves them back into the same track while the elevator loads.  If that's indeed the case, when you're laying track, you might want to be sure you've got the same amount of space between the elevator and the switch serving it off the BNML siding as you do in your longest yard track there, plus the length of the Trackmobile.  Generally, I don't think customer locomotives are allowed off their own trackage.

If you can include a working Trackmobile or other critter there for Patterson, I'd strongly encourage it just for the fun factor.  I'm working on a Bachmann 45-tonner to model ADM 4441 - the resident critter at Harlan Elevator, on the IAIS north of Atlantic - as seen in this Andy Brown photo:

With those little siderods spinning and a Tsunami chugging away, it's really a lot of fun to operate.

Spur Length

Good catch, With all the changes I've made, I was almost 1 car short on that. There is now room for 8 cars and the track mobile.

You are correct on how the elevator is switched, Also, CP shoves cars into the site from the other end.

I plan on having a DC trackmobile here.