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How about that cool Genesis GP9 I decodered up a couple weeks back?

I've hosted two groups of visiting operators since and this thing stinks.  It won't maintain a consistent speed at all times and has a tendency to stop responding to throttle inputs at at inopportune times, suggesting there's some kind of problem with the electronics.  The NCE decoder tests out OK, so maybe something's screwed on the Athearn board it plugs into.  Maybe I'd have been better off with the complete board replacement option after all.  I'll have to do some more disassembly for tuneup purposes anyway, so I'll see what I find.

See this thing?  I think Jimmy Carter was in office when this Athearn GP7 was manufactured.  It was later detailed and painted into a facsimile of WP 708, and has nickel silver wheels, hard-wired electrical connections and a can motor.  You guessed it, it's bulletproof and keeps right on running every session while the fancy Genesis Geep is headed for what may be a long stay in the shop.

Same frustration with a brand

Same frustration with a brand new Bowser AS-616.  Pick-up contact on two of the three axles only.  What were they thinking? 

It spent more time stalled than running until I soldered on extra pickup wires.  I couldn't even get enough contact to power a TCS Keep Alive reliably.

Been there

I feel your pain Rob.  When doing my early builds/buys, I focused too much on nice details and paint and not enough on performance.  However, I'm much more comfortable doing paint and details than I am getting a bad mechanism to run well, so I eventually either sold off the poor runners or put their shells on a high-quality mechanism.

That may not be the answer for everyone depending on your prototype's roster and the models that are available, but in my case, I was able to standardize on a handful of Atlas and Kato mechanisms that were known to be great runners:  Atlas GP38/GP38-2/U23B, Kato SD38-2/SD40-2, Kato-repowered P2K Geeps and Geep rebuilds using Stewart/Kato F7 components, and a single Kato-design P2K SW1200.  Everything else has been de-motored, running as sound dummies or, in a couple cases, just plain old dummies, along for the ride to grow the consist to a more prototypical size.

Personally, I've found that dropping one manufacturer's shell on a good-quality mechanism is usually not that hard OR expensive, and I don't have milling equipment.  Atlas U23Bs can be very inexpensive, and I think you'd find that fitting the P2K shell to that drive would be well worth the time and effort.

Standardization

There are relatively few mechanism types under my long-term successful locos. 

• Athearn Blue Box with hard-wiring past the electrical failure points on the trucks, nickel silver replacement wheels, and can motors from Mashima or Kato.
• Any Kato.  Kato trucks and motors can be mounted on several different frame designs, such as Front Range and Athearn.  I have several locos that utilize Kato drives dropped into other frames.
• Any Atlas.

I have had reliability issues with anything sold as Proto 2000, regardless of it being under the Walthers name.  My only Genesis loco is the GP9 I posted about above.  My only Athearn RTR locos are a pair of SW1500s, and they are getting on my nerves due to spotty performance as well despite soldering all the wiring connections.  They have been my main yard switchers for two years, but are in imminent danger of retirement.  I have some old Geeps with Kato innards that will gladly fill the void.

U30B

Well, Rob, that U30B is performing like the prototype in its last years. I would see if you can find an Atlas U Boat and swap over to that. If not, you could put it in the deadline and it would be inline with what WP was dealing with in its last days.

run reliably

I personally have found only Atlas and Kato to run reliably- I had over 50 locos.

I definitely agree with Kato

Coming into this thread, my position was that Kato is the clear winner and has been for several years.  Some of Atlas mechanisms are good, some are not.   It funny how the old reliable Athearn BB keeps on chugging. 

I think it is like anything else.  When the "manufacturer" designs and has a significant presence in the actual manufacture of the product then it tends to satisfy the customers expectations.  In this case, Kato comes to mind. 

When either of these are out sourced and that significant presence is lost, so to is the satisfaction in the product.  You can name a number of manufacturers that fit this mold.  The irony is that these are the ones who tend to be the highest priced. 

Larry

Nervous

Rob,

After reading about the contact problems with your U30B, it occurred to me that I have one of the new Proto 2000 SD45's with Tsunami sound. I just checked the loco diagram, and sure enough, it has the flimsy wiper contacts that you mentioned above. I've run it around the layout once or twice to make sure that everything works, but that's certainly not op session service. It's hard to imagine that I'm not going to have the same problems that you have with the U30B. So I guess I have three options: 1) return it; 2) use the Tsunami in another unit and make this one a dummy; or, 3) stomp it into oblivion. Thanks for the heads up on this- there's nothing worse than painting, lettering, and weathering a locomotive only to have it perform poorly.

I'm curious about the issues with the Athearn RTR SW1500's as I've been close to picking up a couple of those recently for yard service. Are you using the original decoder and board or did you replace and/or add a decoder to them? You might want to try a factory re-set with the decoders. I've tried this several times with some older decoders that I had and it fixed the problem- for a while. Ultimately I ended up replacing the decoders.

As for reliable mechanisms, I'll echo the Kato and Atlas comments. I also have a Stewart C628 that's been very reliable although I know people have had problems with these in the past. As for decoders, I'm using Tsunami sound and the Soundtraxx MC2H104P9 mobile decoders for non-sound units almost exclusively. I've had problems with just about all of the other decoders I've used. The decoders that come with the Atlas units are some of the worst in terms of performance and features. And I won't use any factory boards. Before putting any unit in service, I take it apart and thoroughly clean everything along with making sure that all electrical connections are soldered. As long as the thing is all in pieces, I might as well add a decoder that I know will work well.

Good luck with your problem children.

Tom Patterson

Sound dummies

Before the stomping ensues, Tom, you might consider one other option, if your SD45 indeed becomes a problem:  Just removing the motor and gears and leaving the Tsunami and lighting in place.  I've done that with P2K Geeps, and you can't spot them in a consist, even when leading...except that they now appear to run like the Atlas- and Kato-powered units that are pushing and pulling them, rather than like P2Ks.  

I know I've gotten grief on the Proto-Layouts list for bothering to put sound in dummies, but since it allows me the flexibility of running those units as leaders without the additional cost, time, and hassle of repowering them, why not?  I only need 1-2 powered units to get trains over my layout, but I'd like to model the 3-5 unit consists of my prototype, so the loss of pulling power isn't a problem.  From an operational standpoint, the dummies are completely transparent.  I actually forget which units are dummies, so I've had to put an HO broom in one of the nose grabs to remind me so I don't assign too many to a single consist.

My total planned roster calls for 18 IAIS road units, and of those, six will be unpowered P2K and Athearn RTR units - four sound and two non-sound.  At those numbers, it hasn't been difficult at all to assign the necessary number of powered units to a consist.  Most have a single dummy with two powered units, though I'll sometimes run two and two.

Re: Tom

The issue with these is power pickup and weight.  They are very sensitive to dirty track, what causes no trouble with other locos will get these to stutter.  I may replace the stock wheels with NWSL to see if the wheels may be a weak link.  I intended to use one of these for a switcher, but they have so little pulling power that proved useless for normal cuts of cars in my yard so I have two running together.  There isn't much additional room for weight.

Assembly of the wiring connections in both of my examples was very poor.  Insufficient insulation was stripped and contact was intermittent.  I re-stripped the wires and soldered all the connections.

I'm using Digitrax decoders installed on the Athearn 9-pin harness.  Re-setting the decoders hasn't changed anything.

Is this a general quality problem or a statistical flyer?

Are we discussing units that are the average of the run or are we seeing the old built on Friday automobile quality issues? Poor wiring connections surely is not intended in the design. It could be typical if their quality over sight is lacking. I have only see a few Athearn RTR models. The ones I have worked with were quite well done. The have essentially factory installed five wire connections. The last had a can motor. They all have screw motor mounts. Basically all the improvements that people do on the old blue box units done in the original design. Could the problem be the DC/DCC light board decoder implementation? As has been indicated in this thread, my strategy is to get the DC model and up grade to the control level. That way I know the fault in the electronics lies with me. Larry

Average

Mine have the same wiring as any Athearn RTR.  Did you look at the connections in the samples you had to ensure that adequate wire was stripped and was making good contact (i.e. take the clips off)?  If so, great.  I have only the examples noted above, but have worked on several others for friends.  Every last one of them has had at least one failed wire connection due to shoddy assembly, and most have had two or more.  Quality control with these is a real problem.  They may look fine at a glance but the little issues are hidden.

Unless something has changed, all the Athearn RTR locos I'm aware of besides the SW1x00 switchers still have open frame motors of variable performance.  Some run well and others need a lot of work assuming they ever run right at all.

They remind me of American cars from the 70s.  Sometimes you'd get a great one, or you might have one that refuses to work from the start.  Plus it wouldn't take long for all kinds of things to start falling apart.  We're spoiled today with how much better typical quality is relative to the past.

In fairness to the current locos, Athearn quality control has always been suspect at best.  The newer RTR versions are somewhat more difficult to disassemble for tuneup, but have mostly the same drivelines and are just about as durable once you get them sorted out.  They also have much better wheelsets that don't require immediate replacement like the old sintered metal.

Everything I see is used

so a person like you may has sorted out the connection problems on the few that I have seen.  The can motor was on a GP35, and it may not have been stock. 

The real question here is why.  At least with the Blue box units the price was kept relatively low.  These RTR units are not that far off the Genesis DC only cost.  Why the sloppy manufacture?  This can't be a sound business plan.

Larry

Perhaps the plan is to close

Perhaps the plan is to close the price gap between RTR and Genesis. Then everyone will say "hey, for a extra xx bucks I can take the genesis one" then once most of the public does not bother with RTR (locos at least) they shut down the RTR line... How many RTR new offerings we had last year? And how many genesis?

I Don't Know...

I think we can stray a long way into the weeds speculating about the motivations of Athearn or other manufacturers. There's little overlap between the RTR and Genesis lines, and the same assembly quality issues seem to plague both of them.

Atlas & Kato vs P2K/Walthers & Athearn

Rob,

  I have had similar problems with my P2K and Walthers versions of the same loco.  The electrical pickup is 'touchy' and the units seem to need 'tuning' at least once every year.  I have been removing the 'light board' and hard wiring the decoders,  I also replace the old lamps with LED's.  I still wind up with 'lube' issues from time to time though.

  My Athearn Genesis seem to be 'touchy' as well.- I will be doing a complete 're-wire' of a F9A later this year as a trial.  My 'RTR' are all SD40-2 models and seem to run just fine.

  My Atlas and Kato units just seem to run even if they have been sitting in the box for months.  Got to love them for reliability.

Jim

Re: Sound dummies

Joe,

I think the idea of a sound dummy is a great one for all the reasons you've listed. In fact, I recently added a Tsunami to an old Blue Box SD9 that I built back in the early 1980's. I yanked the motor and all of the gears out of it and it's now paired up with a Proto 2000 SD9 that has a Soundtraxx MC2H104P9 decoder in it. These units work the Big Chimney Roustabout, which is a local turn and doesn't require a lot of pulling power. I wanted two units on this train, so installing the Tsunami in the old Athearn unit was the perfect solution. Besides, I just couldn't bring myself to scrap one of the first engines I ever detailed. Here are the two units at SJ Tower.

My concern with the SD45 is that if the connection is poor enough to disrupt the power, it might force the sound to restart. The capacitor in the Tsunami may keep it alive long enough for the connection to be restored, but I don't want to spend all the time and effort to make it a sound dummy with the risk that it won't work properly.

Tom Patterson

Pick-up Issues

I'm using Digitrax decoders installed on the Athearn 9-pin harness.  Re-setting the decoders hasn't changed anything

You might try scrapping the wiring harness. I won't use any factory boards or harnesses and instead wire the decoder directly to the various components. It takes a little more time, but that way I can be sure all the connections are done properly.

As for the pick-up issues, it occurred to me last night that Bruce Petrarca did an article in MRH not too long ago on keep alive capacitors. Here's a link to the article:  http://publ.com/.FzR05qo#/39/zoomed. The KA1 or KA2 Keep-Alive Module from Train Control Systems might just do the trick. If I recall, you're not using sound, so you should have room under the shell for this component. Aside from the fact that we shouldn't have to purchase additional equipment to get brand new, expensive locomotives to work properly, this might allow you to keep the two U30B's in service. I'm going to check the SD45, but my guess is that their isn't enough room in the shell for one of these modules.

Tom Patterson

Another vote for hardwiring

Most of my locomotives I've hardwired all the components.  I have two that still use the factory board and they are the ones that suffer from intermittent pickup issues (these are Atlas locos BTW).  Both of those will soon have all factory electronics removed, and I will make sure that all connections are soldered.  

Athearn mechanisms are hit and miss.  I have an old 20+ year old GP50 that I detailed and did some significant tune-up to the drivetrain.  It runs flawlessly and is mostly quiet.  The old motor does draw a huge amount of power, but it's solid as a rock.  On the other hand, I purchased two RTR GP35s and the brand new motors in them were junk.  After trying to replace them with other RTR motors with no improvement, I almost threw them in the trash.  However I took one, gutted the entire thing, filed ever gear, and replaced the motor with a Kato that was a drop-in fit and it's now one of my favorite locos.  It runs like a dream.  I have also replaced all the wheelsets on my Athearns with NWSL semi scale wheels.  Those helped quite a bit with pickup issues.

I have a Genesis as well, and although the motor is nice, the gears are terrible on it.  They grind quite a bit.  I will have to disassemble the entire thing and figure out what the problem is.  

Bottom line is the Atlas and Kato powered locos I have, especially the ones that are hardwired, run excellent and give me almost no issues whatsoever.  From here on out I will most likely be replacing the motor on any Athearn that I work on just for reliability's sake.

-Kevin

Tune up articles?

This problem has me thinking

Re: Larry

I'll limit the response for now to the Proto U30B, since I'm so uncertain as yet what may be going on with the GP9.  The issue occurs at low to midrange speeds - speeds low enough the rotating momentum of the motor doesn't keep it moving when contact appears to be lost.  I've considered the motor could be a contributing factor.

Yes, there's am NCE DA15SR decoder in place.  I do have the decoder biased to low-speed performance, which is very quiet and smooth at very low speeds, until the thing stalls.  

It appears the frame from an Atlas U23B can be adapted to the Proto shell with a little grinding here and there, and I may be able to adapt Atlas trucks to the Proto frame, so there is hope if I finally reach the expected dead end on getting the Proto trucks to stay clean.  I have considered eliminating all lubrication from the trucks and seeing how that works first.

My research indicated that that might be the issue.

Based on what I have found out,  This is a problem fairly common with 5 wound (pole) motors.  The 5 wound is good for high torque high speed, but it leads to a low speed "chuffing" problem.  At load that will lead to the motor stall.  A remedy by the motor makers is to skew the windings.  At any given time, the motor has two windings (poles) active.  That is only 40% of the five windings.  Thus 60% of the rotor is dead at any given instance.  This is why it has trouble at low speed.  Momentum is not high enough to keep the motor running.  Particularly if there is a lot of power required. 

My experience tells me that this region is where the largest motor to motor variations will occur due to manufacturing tolerances.   I bet the motor is heating up during this activity.  Generally the efficiency of the motor goes south when you approach a speed load limit, which is indicated by the "chuffing and stall"  That heat is worrisome problem.  It can turn a marginal motor bad very fast. 

In my research so far, I have found that one of Kato's DCC friendly HO motor designs is a three wound skewed design.   I suspect that they have given up some of the high speed power for the low speed stability.  Three windings reduced the dead region of the rotor to 33% of the circumference. 

A test for this would be to Increase your low end speed settings and run a smaller consist. I know that that is not the way you want to run the trains, but if it runs ok in that part of the power speed envelope, then I would say the problem is not with the pickups, but with the motor. 

I have some other idea's here, but for now I really interested in how this motor checks out.

Larry

OK then

Which CVs are you suggesting I adjust here, kick rate, kick depth, other?  My time for messing with this will be limited for the next week, but I'll keep experimenting.