coming up with an HO scale plan

My previous layout was an around the walls shelf depicting the Wabash Columbia Branch in Missouri. It was a successful layout in that it ran well had interesting ops and was a good test bed for honing my skills. Like all layouts it had it’s good and it’s bad points. Like many I have been recently influenced by the layout planning work of Stein Jr, Byron Henderson, Lance Mindheim, and others. After studding some of their plans and concepts and finding Trevor Marshall’s recent postings on achievable layouts I think I have settled in on a concept for my next layout. I think the 2.5 miles from the East Grand Blvd overpass to about the Mack Ave grade crossing in Detroit is perfect for shelf layout planning. Using Google Maps or Bing Maps Birdseye will give a quick over all view. The line has a couple of interesting customers and is just oozing with character. My first go at a plan for the layout is a blending of layout plans that have caught my eye along with a blending of the prototype. These plans are what got my mind going: My "plan" so far. A marked up version of a Stein Jr. version of a Lance Mindheim concept. I'm looking for some help in refining the plan and concept. The "givens": HO scale Space for stage 1 is a shelf 24" x 10'. It can bend around the right corner a few feet and onto a staging shelf about 12" wide max 6-8 feet long and can run a tail track further along the left wall about four feet. Track will be hand laid using PC and wood ties, code 70 and 55 rail. Control will be Digitrax DCC.

I took these last winter and

I took these last winter and are the feel I want this layout to have.

"refining the plan and concept"

Looks pretty refined already. The only questions I have are : Is the track at materials unloading a double ended industrial track or is it also a run around? If it's not a run around you might leave off the right end switch and just serve it from the left side(of course alternate run around's are always nice to have). If possible i'd move the spur to the scrap yard so you don't have to disturb cars at the materials unloading spur to switch the scrapyard, maybe reverse the turnout and move it to the main down by the tail track section joint? It would also be nice to get rail service into the relatively large center rear area, might require a spur track crossing over the industry A or industry B track at a shallow angle near their switch? Lastly for a small layout like this I'd suggest highly detailed switches and matching flextrack instead of PC and wood ties.The tie plates and track details could be modeled better and with less work.If you really want to pimp it up you could even build it to P-87 prototypical rail and wheel  standards...DaveBranum

Looks great

I'm with Dave - I think the plan looks really good already.  I like it a lot.  My only suggestions would be to restore the original scrap yard switch and do away with the left switch into the materials unloading area, since you already have a runaround.

Like Dave, I was originally thinking that it'd be good to add another customer between industries A & B, but you've really got plenty already, with 5 customers plus the interchange.  For a modern, inner-city layout like this, what I think might really benefit its realism would be to add the remains of abandoned spurs.  Perhaps between industries A & B, and below industry B?  The structures they once served could either be modeled as abandoned buildings, or active businesses that have no need for rail service, like a sign company or a restaurant supply firm.

I'm looking forward to seeing you build this Joe.  Please keep us posted.

Thanks guys. I downloaded

Thanks guys. I downloaded Anyrail and roughly redrew what I was thinking. 

The scrap yard is one of the busier customers on the line. The materials unloading area is where an off line plastic molding customer transfers plastic pellets from rail cars to trucks. I added the second run around track for a place to hold off spot cars. You guys are right adding the material unloading area to the same lead as the busiest customer isn't the best idea.

Scrap yard switch

Joe, what about just moving the switch to your scrap yard up one track?  It could either cross the left end of your material unloading track (what many prototypes refer to as a transload)...

...or you could shorten the material handling track slightly on the left, and have it diverge from the siding just to the right of the scrap yard track:

Joe, Both good ideas. The

Joe, Both good ideas. The only down side I'm seeing to the plan is that it doesn't follow the prototype at all, but that might just be a compromise I have to live with given my limited space.

Prototype options?

Hi Joe - Is there a part of your prototype you could model in your space, even if it offered fewer switching options?  I really like your plan a lot, but for a modern prototype, five active customers in such a small space might be overkill.  Like you, I've been influenced by Lance Mindheim's writings, especially regarding much operating fun we can get out of just a very few customers.  If you could find a part of your prototype that had maybe 2-3 active customers, that might be plenty.  

For comparison, I model about 50 miles of my prototype, and in that space they only have eight active customers, so that's all I have on my 33'x15' layout. Of those eight, only three are busy enough that they get worked in most sessions, but I still have no trouble keeping 2 two-man crews busy for around 2-1/2 hours per session.  If I was starting over, I'd seriously consider building only about half of my current layout, which would leave me with four customers, only two of which are somewhat busy.  That would still be plenty to keep 1-2 people busy if I'm operating at a realistic pace, introducing the pauses of the prototype.

As another example, my friend James McNab's 12'x18'8" IAIS Grimes Line,  http://www.iaisrailfans.org/gallery/MJMGrimesLine , only has three customers, and only two of those are worked in most sessions.

I want to be clear, though, that I'm not trying to talk you out of your current plan.  In my case, I've really enjoyed the fun of modeling specific locations and just copying the scenes and operations I saw there, but building something that evokes the feel of your prototype, without being based on any one portion of it, might be just the thing for you.  Either way you go, this looks like a really neat line to model, and I'm looking forward to seeing your progress.

Prototype

Do you have a schematic or map of the prototype we can look at?

"maybe 2-3 active customers?"

The problem with just a couple industries is they usually don't offer the option of using many car types. If one likes to build freight car models having more varied industries can give more choices of car types. The other way to handle it would be to model a pass thru the scene operation with staging loop or reverse curves at each end and don't spot all he cars on scene but just run them thru and maybe stop them at a passing siding in town to look at them for a while. The loops would probably require more room than adding a few more industries on scene however. ....DaveBranum

Maps

Maps

milesevad's map link does not work, but I believe this is the correct area: http://goo.gl/maps/M26t1

Looks ready for shelf design to me!

I'm going to guess...

Cadilac Assembly Plant

It says "Cadillac Assembly Plant" all over it in the map view.

It looks like it has a road test track, storage yard and auto loading ramp spurs.

Interesting...

Map view in firefox

http://goo.gl/maps/1d57S

When you zoom in more, you get the street labels and then further in it starts naming businesses.

Thanks everyone. Bill's map

Thanks everyone. Bill's map link is right on. I'm really interested in trying to model the line from about the I 94 overpass to about E Canfield St. I don't have a real track map or track chart but Google maps makes it pretty easy to figure out.

I think this is a classic

I think this is a classic case of layout planning. Compromising on prototype accuracy vs fitting operational interest in a given space. I think I’m more interested in interesting operation vs perfect prototype fidelity. I learned from my last layout that I don’t have the time to scratch build a lot of structures but do enjoy kit bashing. So I’m looking more to capture the look and feel of the area than a perfect rendition. I guess more of a David Barrow Cat Mountain and Santa Fe than Lance Mindheim Downtown spur.

I think I’m on to something

I think I’m on to something with this one. The features are not really in the right order but it includes the three main customers. By moving the scrap yard to the front it makes it easy to run the lead off the front edge implying that there is more that is not modeled. It also keeps the scenic features along front low, scrap piles, and easy to reach over. It also leaves enough space for the Pillsbury plant to be large and dominate. Also always places along the backdrop to build building flats of older brick buildings that are characteristic of the area. Let me know what you guys think.

I like it

I like it Joe.  Looks like a good compromise to fit a reasonable number of customers into your space.

A couple suggestions:

• If you're going to retain your yard along the right wall with the industry against the backdrop, perhaps that could be Detroit Mill Supply, with the structure itself as a backdrop flat?  Since you're swapping Pillsbury from the east side of the line to the west, and DMS is just across the street to the north from Pillsbury, it might be good to do the same with DMS.
• If you move the plastic transload spur further north toward Pillsbury, you could fit the engine service track in kind of where the transload spur is now, but slightly further south and paralleling the main to the left edge of the layout.

Thinking Out Loud ...

I like your choice of prototype and concept ... a very workable combination.  If it were me ...

I'd try to give more room to Pillsbury ... lots of places to spot several varieties of cars.

I'd also try and move the scrap pile towards the back ... easier to get the 'effect' of large piles of scrap without folks being able to get their noses right in it.  Just me ...

I'd personally keep the transload facility on the (run-around) siding as it is on the prototype (I believe?).  I 'think' that it would add some interest to the operations as any pellet hoppers would have to be returned to their spots following any required run-around moves to service the other industries.  (Of course, if you think this would 'over complicate' the operations then another switch could be added just to serve the transload facility ... either in its current location or perhaps as a stub off the left end of the siding.)

(edit) and you could add a storage track off of the Pillsbury spur if you'd like (the turnout would be right after the crossing).

"another switch could be added just to serve the transload "

  The obvious place would be to move the transload to the front left corner and add a spur off the run around starting about where the present pellet rectangle is and running to the left end of the module. That would max out the reload track capacity and keep the run around clear........DaveBranum

More good input guys. Let me

Bench work and lighting

I finished the bench work and lighting tonight.