Brad Ketchen OSCR

When I was 14 or 15, I met my friends, or shall I say mentors, Bob and Peter Winterton who both model the CPR North of Lake Superior in Ontario. Their history lessons, modeling expertise and general knowledge inspired me to model the junction of branch lines of the CPR and CNR in Manitouwadge, ON, Canada North East of Thunder Bay, ON about 32 km's North of the Trans Canada Highway North of Superior. Both of which raced to be the first to service the Noranda Geco and Willroy Mines North of Manitouwadge. At the tender age of 15 this was an ambitious undertaking as my previous layout was a 4' x 8' set on plywood about 6 Inches above the basement floor. In fact, upon meeting the Winterton's I dismantled it through the sheer embarrassment when Peter came over (who is my age) after visiting Bob's 'Superior Northern' http://cprailmmsub.blogspot.ca/2011/11/great-canadian-layouts-bob-wintertons.html (scroll to the Nov 12, 2011 entry) and witnessing his modeling expertise. However, in hindsight, I quickly gained knowledge through the teachings of Bob and Peter and for that I am forever grateful.

So back to modeling Manitouwadge, ON up to Hillsport, ON it was a huge undertaking in respect with the little knowledge, pictures and so forth of the CP and CN lines. Interestingly, CN had running rights over the CP from Geco to Interchange at Manitouwadge and a pulpwood spur.The trip to Manitouwadge would be about 18 hours from my location in Mississauga, ON and I didn't drive. So lots of research was to be...and I love the research as much as I love modeling. 

I was able to obtain a CN car control manual with all the tracks numbered with their respective industries. Also a CN timetable book listing the mixed local that originated out of Hornepayne. I also obtained an interesting article sent from Bob's friend Gerhardt Wetzel by A.W Gansel on the mid 70's mixed local with details of the train, the switching and general work throughout the day. http://www.exporail.org/can_rail/Canadian%20Rail_no298_1976.pdf

There were also pictures of the two CN GP9's switching the mine at Geco, as well as a shot of the mill gondola's spotted at the Willroy mine. I was also able to obtain, at my local library, an ariel shot of the Noranda Geco mine. r%20view.jpg 

That and a topography map of Manitouwadge and Hillsport with minimal track detail. How ever the topography was handy for scenic work. But other than there was little to go on. Mind you we didn't have the internet then.

Fast forward 20 some odd Years, and my re-entry into the hobby I learned both the CN and CP tracks were ripped up once the mines were closed. Manitouwadge still exists as a retirement 'adventure' community and in fact has the cheapest housing in all of Canada. With the internet I was able to gain some extra knowledge through kind folks and more pictures and I would like to share it with you as it is an interesting area to model with the mines, pulpwood spurs, interchange with CP and CN and I have since learned there was and still is a lovely station at Hillsport. Also, I saw a post about the CPR Canadian being re-routed up both the Manitouwadge sub's to the CN Caramat sub backwards after a derailment on the CPR's Heron Bay sub.

One of the most fascinating things I learned was of the building of the CNR branch line, the Manitouwadge Sub, and in asking Bob whether steam engines ever ran on the CN and/or CP lines, seeing as the lines were built at the end of the steam era. The answer we did not know. But indeed there was steam on the CNR. In fact, a CNR Consolidated was deployed to run the work train laying the ties and rails. And the interesting part of the story, the Consolidated derailed and sunk into the bog! And apparently it was never retrieved!! Once the line was inspected by the CNR big wigs, the CNR employees working on the line disguised the engine, as the boiler was still sticking out of the bog, covering it with one of those green golf type mats!? Apparently it worked. 

Full article here:  http://classicbooksforboys.com/pdf%20documents/Northern.130-136.pdf

 

With the internet, I was able to obtain pictures of the station at Hillsport. It is no longer there. 0station.jpg 

(Photographer unknown).

However, I was never able to find a picture of the one at Manitouwadge which of course no longer stands. I was delighted to find that the Google maps car made it up to Manitouwadge and low and behold it made it down Station Road to where the Yard once was. And what do we see? 

 

0station.jpg 

A CN boxcar used as a storage shed spotted just West to where the station once stood. I was thinking the building that's there now utilized as some sort of warehouse/storage facility/public works building perhaps could have been the station but it looks far too new for one that built in the mid-50's.

Manitouwadge is an interesting area to model. The Scenery, the history, although with little train operations (reportedly CN and CP alternated days switching the mines) although I have since learned there was a train that ran from Caramat down to the Pulp Mills on the North shore of Superior and back, whether it was CN down to Manitouwadge interchange with the CP or ran straight through I don't know.

Of course any information would be appreciated. One day I may go back to model this area whether I model a time before the rails were ripped up in 1996 or a freelance current day operation like the mines were still there. 

 

 

Ontario South Central Railway, Toronto, Canada. 

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Chris VanderHeide cv_acr

Interesting Subject

This would probably make a pretty interesting layout. CN and CP, mining operations, concentrates shipped in regular mill gondolas, mixed trains, classic northern Ontario scenery (lots of rocks, small lakes and trees)...

I missed exactly what era you're considering looking at though.

There was also a unit pulpwood train that ran through this area from about the lates 1970s through early 1990s. It used flatcars owned by Kimberly Clark with K-C lettering and logos and KCWX reporting marks. I don't remember exactly where it originated (somewhere on CN) but the destination for the logs was Terrace Bay on CP. I can't find any original photos of the KCWX cars online anyway (if you drop me a private message I can probably email you one in original lettering) but a bunch of the surviving cars ended up on the Algoma Central in the late 1990s, and they're still there today:

http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=ac238548&o=ac

 

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Brad Ketchen OSCR

re: Kimberly Clark train

Hi Chris, yes I believe the train originated at Exton, ON mp 135.9 near Nakina on the Caramat sub. There was a fair sized Kimberly Clark operation there with 4 yard tracks and a chip track maybe truck served now I don't know. I also don't know whether they interchanged the cars at Manitouwadge with CP or the train ran right through to Terrace Bay or not. Interesting that they pulled up the rails when there was still substantial pulpwood operations up there. In the article Gerhardt had sent me, the mixed train only picked up 6 mill car loads from Geco and switched out 32 pulp wood cars! 

Thanks for the information. The era I would consider could be with the combine through to a current day scenario imagining the tracks were still there. Shortline operation perhaps?

Ontario South Central Railway, Toronto, Canada. 

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Jurgen Kleylein

CP traffic at Manitouwadge

I was railfanning the Heron Bay Sub of CP once in the early 80s, and I saw and have photos of the trains handling the Kimberly Clark cars.  They were handled on the Schreiber-White River locals by CP power.  I expect a local out of White River handled the traffic up to Manitouwadge with CP units as well.  Our Sudbury Division club layout also models traffic from Manitouwadge in the form of CP concentrate gondolas:

These cars are models of the actual cars used in this service, and all had to be scratchbuilt since no kits of these models are available in plastic.

Jurgen

HO Deutsche Bundesbahn circa 1970

Visit the HO Sudbury Division at http://sudburydivision.ca/

The preceding message may not conform to NMRA recommended practices.

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Brad Ketchen OSCR

re: CP traffic at Manitouwadge

This is great Jurgen! Thanks. My friends model Schreiber and White River and we figured the Manitouwadge local ran out Schreiber up to Geco then back down to White River. 

Here you can see the very CP concentrate mill gons you model at the Geco mine. 

Geco.jpg 

I saw a picture of a Canadian Pacific F unit delivering a boiler when they first opened the mine somewhere. 

Thanks for contributing to the thread.

Ontario South Central Railway, Toronto, Canada. 

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Jurgen Kleylein

not a turn

I witnessed the meet of the east and west locals at Heron Bay (both with Kimberly Clark cars), so it certainly wasn't an out and back run.  I can't shed any light on what happened east of Heron Bay, though.  I should really go through all the slides and see if I can find the photos of that trip.  Perhaps I can scan them sometime and post them.

Jurgen

HO Deutsche Bundesbahn circa 1970

Visit the HO Sudbury Division at http://sudburydivision.ca/

The preceding message may not conform to NMRA recommended practices.

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DRLOCO

To consider

As I discovered after getting my Ontario Northland Ry based Iroquois falls/Abitibi-consolidationted paper mill layout up and running, one of the downsides of modeling this area is that after a while, the trains all look the same, paper cars and tanks in,paper cars and tanks out. Unit trains, while the backbone of real railroads, have a tendency to make model railroads quite boring. My response was to turn to proto freelancing and add a nickel mine load for variety. This helped break up the monotony of a single large industry taking up the bulk of the trains. This area is A really great place to model, and I am enjoying it, but I wanted to point out one of the negatives of picking a one commodity prototype to focus on...it could be repetitive to operate after a while.

 

Modeling the Midland Railway of Manitoba in S-Scale.

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Brad Ketchen OSCR

Unit Trains vs mixed

Hi Dr Loco,

Everyday I see Railserve and CN switch the Suncor yard here in Clarkson, Mississauga, ON. Just tank cars. Must be quite boring day in day out and they all must look the same barring the odd white tank car. 

Actually Manitouwadge had three fuel delivery tracks and interchange with CP. So you'd have the mill gons - both CN & CP, pulpwood cars, wood chip cars - there still is a burner just North of the Yard, tank cars, random box cars and so forth for interchange and the older mixed trains with a combine. So there is a nice selection.

Funny you mention though, my freelance layout now is primarily tank cars and covered/cylindrical hoppers.

 

 

 

Ontario South Central Railway, Toronto, Canada. 

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Brad Ketchen OSCR

Unit Trains vs mixed

Hi Dr Loco,

Everyday I see Railserve and CN switch the Suncor yard here in Clarkson, Mississauga, ON. Just tank cars. Must be quite boring day in day out and they all must look the same barring the odd white tank car. 

Actually Manitouwadge had three fuel delivery tracks and interchange with CP. So you'd have the mill gons - both CN & CP, pulpwood cars, wood chip cars - there still is a burner just North of the Yard, tank cars, random box cars and so forth for interchange and the older mixed trains with a combine. So there is a nice selection.

Funny you mention though, my freelance layout now is primarily tank cars and covered/cylindrical hoppers.

 

 

 

Ontario South Central Railway, Toronto, Canada. 

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Brad Ketchen OSCR

Steam locomotive swallowed by muskeg number

I have received information that the CN Steam locomotive assigned to the work train to lay the ties and rails that was swallowed up by the muskeg was Consolidated 2493. Would be interesting to go and find it.

Thanks to John Needham via Bob Winterton for this information.

 

Ontario South Central Railway, Toronto, Canada. 

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billn

The  Kimberly Clark  log

The  Kimberly Clark  log train ran 5 days a week out of Schreiber to Manitouwadge  leaving at 0900 am and returning some 12 to 18 hrs later.  The train left engines and caboose out of Schreiber with either two 4500 or 4700 series MLW units or two SD 40s.  The train was lifted at Terrace Bay, which would be made up with empty CP 340000 chip gondolas and CN 870000 series chip gondolas,  KCWX  1000 to 1149 series log flats and CN 615000 series log flats - approximately 10 empty gondolas and 20 to 30 empty log flats.

The train ran east  on the Heron Bay Sub to Struthers  where it would lift  the Geco ore gondolas which arrived from the east, either from Noranda or Valley Field, PQ.  The lift would be 15 to 20 empty ore gondolas and would also carry propane tanks for Superior Propane Fuel Oil (for Imperial Oil  and Gulf Oil) and flats with mining timbers and other equipment.  The train would then head north on the Manitouwadge branch for 39.8 miles to do their work getting clearance from CN to head to Willroy and Geco mines to set off empties and lift loads arriving back at Manitouwadge.  The chip and log loads would be lifted for Terrace Bay.  The ore loads set off at Struthers, eastbound for Noranda and Valley Field, PQ.  After this set off, the train headed west on the Heron Bay Sub to Terrace Bay where the train was shoved up the hill to the Kimberly Clark Pulp and Paper mill to be unloaded.

The train returned engines and caboose back to Schreiber.

The first crew assignments were Mon, Wed, Friday.  Second crew worked Tues and Thursday to Manitouwadge.  Saturday was the paper train to White River - first out fast freight return to Schreiber.

I am visually impaired and not much good with a computer but if you answer this post, I have a few photos of the station,  the agent and a CPR conductor booking in or out inside the station that a friend can email to you.  I can be reached at 807-824-3338 in the new year if you want more information.

Thank you,

Bill Needham

Schreiber Ontario

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billn

Kimberly Clark log train

The log train assignment started in 1977 due to the fact not enough wood could be brought off the highway after the expansion of the Kimberly Clark pulp mill.  Prior to this, a east way-freight worked 6 days a week out of Schreiber going to Manitouwadge doing work along the Heron Bay Sub, lifting and setting off in route - lifting empty ore gondolas at Struthers for the two mines at Manitouwadge then returning down the branch-line to Struthers then into White River.  They would over night in White River, returning to Schreiber the following day

The power at this time was RS 3,  RS 10,  RS 18,  C 424,  GP 9,    GP 30,  GP 35 and GP 38.

Thank you,

Bill Needham

 

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davidspring

Derailment of CPR's The Canadian on the Heron Bay Sub

Hello. I am probably the newest subscriber here. I am very interested in your comment that you'd seen a post with respect to The Canadian's "being re-routed up both the Manitouwadge subs to the CN Caramat sub backwards after a derailment on the CPR's Heron Bay sub."

Is there any chance you might point me in the direction of that particular post? The derailment was caused by a head-on with an eastbound freight on the morning of July 9, 1967. I was a passenger on CPR's No.1 on that day and until very recently have been totally unable to discover any records, official or otherwise, or writings of any kind that even acknowledge the existence of the wreck.

One of the stories associated with the wreck is that during the back-up, a wrong switch was thrown and The Canadian was directed under a loading pocket at a Geco shaft. Considering everything else that happened, I have no reason to believe that the story is untrue; I saw some weird stuff from my perch up in the Park car on that unhappy day.

Any information would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks.

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Brad Ketchen OSCR

The Canadian reveresed up the Manitouwadge subs

Hi there David. Welcome to the board. I should have put a reference of the reverse movement of the Canadian up the Manitouwadge subs. I can't find the link to the story but there is some mention of it on this page about another diversion at Franz:  http://www.trainweb.org/franzswing/franzdiversion.htm. Interesting that The Canadian was directed into the mine at Geco. Woops! It must have been the talk of the town! 

Thanks for your message btw, there a few other links, in trying to find that read, I found including the story about the M269/M270 with the combine. I had this article courtesy of Gerhardt Wetzel in print:  http://www.exporail.org/can_rail/Canadian%20Rail_no298_1976.pdf

I modeled both of the GP9's, 4510/4512, in the article. Then proceeded to chop their noses re-entering the hobby after a 20 year hiatus to model current era.  

Another interesting link, a short article on pg 4 about CP trying to sell off the line. But there was little left for a short line after the mines closed. 

And Bill Needham, here is a shot of the Kimberly Clark local on Rail Pictures, thanks to Mike Danneman:  http://www.railpictures.net/photo/407545/. And thank you for that info.  

Maybe one day i'll revisit modeling the Manitouwadge subs. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ontario South Central Railway, Toronto, Canada. 

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Brad Ketchen OSCR

Bill, how did I miss this post?

Thanks for all the info Bill. David resurrected this post. Very interesting info. I may actually model the rail activity again at Manitouwadge one day. Wish I hadn't chopped those GP9 noses but maybe take a creative license and say it existed into the 2000's. I modeled the CP RS18u and a C424 with the help of Bob and Peter Winterton. Thanks to them. So did they run 4 axel's up the CP Manitouwadge sub? My CN operating manual said they were prohibited on the wye at Geco. Btw, I used to be in touch with a CN employee that told me about their operations out of Hornepayne. And telling me about the covered roundhouse. There's a picture to be found that I saw recently. What's the status of it now? 

I would like to see the pictures as well.

Thanks for sharing. 

 

 

 

Ontario South Central Railway, Toronto, Canada. 

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Chris VanderHeide cv_acr

Axle Prohibition

I think if you re-read your document that you'll find that SIX axle units, not four axles, would be prohibited on the wye or other trackage with sharp curves and light rail.

6 axle units tending to be much heavier, and the larger trucks with more wheels in line harder on tight curvature and/or minimally maintained track.

All of the units listed in Bill's post were 4-axles; not a 6-motor among them.

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Brad Ketchen OSCR

4 vs 6 axles

Hi Chris, sorry, that's what I meant. 6 axle's were prohibited on the wye. A little tired and blown out from a long weekend up in Haliburton/Algonquin Park when I typed it I guess.  

Ontario South Central Railway, Toronto, Canada. 

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dssa1051

Manitouwadge mixed train

I rode the mixed train to Manitouwadge and return from Hornepayne, ON  in October, 1977 on my honeymoon. We drove to Hornpayne from White River, ON early in the morning listening to the Little Red Barn Show on the car radio from WOWO in Fort Wayne, IN.  AM Radio at 100,000 watts.

 

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Brad Ketchen OSCR

Kimberly Clarke train

Mike Danneman caught the Kimberly Clarke train on the CP Heron Bay sub headed for the Manitouwadge sub to be knowingly handed off to CN at Manitouwadge en route for log loading at Exton on the CN Caramac sub. Ultimate destination on return to Kimberly Clarke at Marathon. http://www.railpictures.net/photo/407545/

Ontario South Central Railway, Toronto, Canada. 

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Brad Ketchen OSCR

Layout plan for CN & CP Manitouwadge subs

When I modeled The CN/CP Manitouwadge subs I was knee high to a grasshopper...and I took too much on for my bedroom that was 12' x 9' with a closet that jutted out and a low window.... I slept underneath Manitouwadge so you can just imagine what happened with a nightmare...nothing short of the reaction to an earthquake. I tried to model Manitouwadge up to Hillsport (the CN Caramat sub main) and attempted to have a couple modules extend into the closet!! Such a naive approach..but then again I was new to modeling the prototype and proper logistics of the hobby and track planning. Also, then it was almost unheard, of unless you were British modeler, to just have a small switching layout. 

So here's a plan just created detailing Manitouwadge and Geco proper. dge-subs.jpg 

The turnouts into the Geco mine would need to be tailored a bit. And i'm not a big fan of having a back drop start/end mid-layout so there would have to be some disguising done there. Also there's a significant wye the leads from the mines at Geco to the CN Manitouwadge sub to Hillsport where it meets the CN 'Caramat sub' mainline connecting the West to the South/East. Wye's of course take a lot of room to model and couldn't include it in my basic sized room plan (12' x 9' standard bedroom) but of course could be included with a bigger room with a peninsula and a staging add on. 

But anyone interested, feel free to use the plan...and as always suggestions please. 

Brad.

Ontario South Central Railway, Toronto, Canada. 

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Brad Ketchen OSCR

Manitouwadge subs Car Control manual track plan

This is from the CN Car control manual 'Hornepayne' region, July 1982: l-manual.jpg 

Ontario South Central Railway, Toronto, Canada. 

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Brad Ketchen OSCR

oh...and the wye

The wye would have been lovely to model...but would take up too much space...but of course could be added with a bigger room. I normally design my track plans to fit the space sizes I've have/had to work with, average size room 12' x 9', (not to mention fitting a small switching layout into the common area of a condo!). 

Ontario South Central Railway, Toronto, Canada. 

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Brad Ketchen OSCR

Manitouadge/Geco top map and car control track details

Manitouwadge top map detail. Yard and station detail at bottom left. 

e-detail.jpg 

Geco Mines detail

o-detail.jpg 

Trackwork at Manitouwadge. CP owned but shared with CN. Details from CN car control manual.

-diagram.jpg 

Car control manual track assignments

signs(1).jpg 

Ontario South Central Railway, Toronto, Canada. 

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Brad Ketchen OSCR

TVO documentary

https://tvo.org/video/archive/people-patterns/manitouwadge

Aired in 1988. Strange no mention of rail service. Even the first interviewee mentions ''No rail service''. Well the tracks were laid in 1955 and ripped in the mid 90's! 

Never have I ever seen a mis-informed documentary. And sad that the employment will soon see the mining industry pull out. Nothing exists but the town itself, mostly as a retirement community; apparently some of the cheapest housing in Canada and outdoor adventure activities for visitors and the like. 

 

Ontario South Central Railway, Toronto, Canada. 

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Brad Ketchen OSCR

Manitouwadge Station(s) photos

 

With thanks to Tom Garik who had photographed the station at Hillsport (no longer) on the Carmat suband is native to the area. I contacted him and he was happy to send these along.  
 
Apparently there was an older Manitouwadge station and CPR bunkhouse on the East side of the Yard and then a newer station.
 
Old Manitouwadge 'Union' Station:
tion%201.jpg 
 
Yard and CPR bunk houses on right.
nkhouses.jpg 
 
New station (upper right white building) and Yard. Tank car at 1 of three fuel companies at mid right. 
d%20yard.jpg 
 
CPR entering Manitouwadge from the South in 1970. 2 GP9's in old and new schemes and an F unit in old scheme. 
n%201970.jpg 
 
First car shipment out of Willroy mine at Geco North of Manitouwadge with business car and celebration. 
st%20car.jpg 

Ontario South Central Railway, Toronto, Canada. 

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