" the John Allen Centennial "

 Not surprising since John has been gone for so long. John was a progressive guy so if he were alive today he'd not be talking about his 1957 layout he'd be living it up in our discussion form talking about the latest and greatest things going on in the hobby. ...DaveBranum

Timeless....

 John's work is timeless. The fact of his being gone  a long time should have nothing to do with anything. We are losing touch with the work of the old guard Masters of the hobby like John, Bill McClanahan  and others.  It's a shame too.

Michael

J.A. 100 years

I grew up reading the things John Allen did with modeling. He was waaaaayyyy ahead of his time. No matter what I built on my first layout was garbage, not one iota being close to the worst John did. But I knew he was the master of the craft. As good his was and as bad as mine was I did not get discouraged, no just more encouraged to improve and hone my skills. I am working on what is most likely my final layout and I know it still will not hold a candle to John's skills. I just hope that God put him in charge of Heaven's Model Railroad Association. HMRA! Thanks John.

" We are losing touch with the work of the old guard Masters "

If you are using "we" to mean someone you know then maybe but if you are using "we" to  include the modelers I know then you are wrong. Most of us grew up  waiting for his new ad photos to appear each month so we are fully aware of John's contribution to the hobby but as Tupac said "Life goes on" and John's work would be way different today if he was still modeling so dwelling on the 1957 state of the art is not all that interesting to those of us still living in 2013.....DaveBranum

"We" as in the hobby as a whole....

I can't speak for the modelers you know but I am finding it an increasingly more frequent occurrence that when I encounter newcomers to the hobby and mention guys like John Allen and Bill McClanahan that they have no clue who I'm talking about. There is also a tendency today among some modern day  modelers to  "poo poo" the Gorre and Daphetid and refer to it as a "caricature" or a "cartoon" both of which which I find derisive and insulting towards such a landmark layout. Too many modelers seem to think the definitive word of model railroads begins and ends with modern day modelers and authors. The funny thing is that a lot of what is being presented as "new"  by the modern day authors is just recycled and slightly updated techniques that the the old guard was using back in 1957 anyway.  I do not "dwell on the 1957  state of the art" but neither do I just dismiss it as "old hat" either. Part of what's wrong with this hobby is exactly that type of attitude.

Michael

" newcomers to the hobby "

   That's just the way it is. They don't need to know the history to enjoy the hobby. Probably few racing fans know who Billy Vukovich was but that don't stop them from enjoying Jeff Gordon. .DaveBranum

Forgetting Allen would be like forgetting Rembrandt

Although I have to admit my recent art graduate students didn't show much interest in 17th century techniques.

Allen was my hero during my teen modeling years, and I tried to imitate his work to the best of my limited skills and resources. His writing and photos showed me me how a model railroad can make the transition from an elaborate toy to a work of art. Every scene, every section, and the entire railroad had a story to tell. We never had to be told it was a model, but each photo is plausible and beautiful.

I hope I can remember those lessons as I start my first layout in 40 years.

pqe

Forgetting John ARMSTRONG would be more of a shame..

As I look at many model railroad layouts built today, I see more an influence of John Armstrong, someone I rarely seen mentioned in this forum, than I do John Allen.  Should I lament that it's a shame we don't remember his valuable contributions to the hobby?!

Ken L.

I appreciate John Armstrong....

For his contributions and he would also be one I consider part of the "old guard"   although I didn't mention him by name.   But I would argue that he didn't have the kind of far reaching impact John Allen has had.  Armstrong 's forte was more or less track planning and operation and not much of anything else where as John Allen impacted many different aspects of the hobby from scenery techniques to weathering to scratch building to track planning to operation to proper photography technique  to proper use of mirrors to ......   The list of influences John Allen and the Gorre and Daphetid  has had on this hobby is endless.  Just because your view of the hobby is so narrow Ken and you can't appreciate the sheer genius of his work doesn't make it any less valuable.

Michael

All I am saying is...

John Armstrong was just as much a genius of his own right, as John Allen was.  Both had different influences on the hobby.  But I don't go around lamenting how we are ignoring his contributions to the hobby.

Ken L

When someone deliberately tries to push buttons

That they know will incite a person then you'll have to excuse that person if they lose their patience.  Ken's post here on a thread I started to express an opinion are an obvious and deliberate attempt to try and start an argument with me. Anyone that can't see that intent is blind.  If everyone will notice, I put this thread under the "editorial or commentary" category. There was a reason for that.  I suppose i should have made it a blog post where i would have had to the power to delete irrelevant post such as yours Paul but I tend to try and save my blog for post on my layout progress.

At any rate, in an attempt to bring this thread back on topic, I have lamented before that I think the work of not just John Allen but many others is falling by the wayside and getting lost in time.  It would be of great service to the hobby if a publisher like Kalmbach would go back and release some of it's old out of print publications in the form of E-books. While some may say that the information is dated, there is still loads of knowledge  to be gleaned  from it and also the proper people would get credit for their ideas rather than what we have now with modern day authors recycling old techniques and trying to claim them as their own. The  digital CD of old MR mags is a step in the right direction but there is so much more that could be done.  Even hard to find information on prototype railroads like, for example, H. Reids book on "The Virginian" could be published as E books and made accessible to a whole new generation of hobbyist.

Michael

I'm just pointing out...

John Allen is not the only one that deserves such recognition, praise, and credit for contributing significant things to the hobby. That is all.  John Allen is a significant person, who contributed much to the hobby.  I actually would love to have met him if he were alive today, only to ask his feelings on "today's issues".  I had the privilege to meet John Armstrong, and we even debated one of his trackplans, and though we disagreed with each other, I think we both learned something new from each other. 

Oh and yes, I am aware oh his operating sessions of the G&D.  I know of how he would place an electrical device (sorry i forget exactly what it was) so that if the steam locomotive did not stop for coal and water, it would eventually stop.  But what I need to learn, for my interests, in operations, will come from the New York Central System circa 1953. 

But as far as an overall concept, and the layout overall, I'm sorry I'm not impressed with the G&D  As a child I was fascinated with it.   But as I learned more about actual prototype railroads and how they functioned, and being introduced to "sincere route trackplans", the interest i had in the G&D waned.   The track plan is a spaghetti bowl.  And though the scenery is majestic, I don't find it realistic in many areas.  Now if YOU like such scenes and layouts, I do mean it when I say that is fantastic! If that is how you want to model, go and do it!

And just because I hate modeling does not mean I don't appreciate models.  I just don't care for the tasks required to do it.  My desire is to operate on a finished layout, with structures, scenery, details, etc, following the prototype as a benchmark as closely as possible.  I even am going so far in my research to understand labor union agreements on what certain crews can do and couldn't, and how often were exceptions made and for what reasons to those agreeements.  Even many of those who are strict conformers to running trains like the prototype think I am going to far with that, maybe they are correct.  But understanding how the actual prototype functioned and simulating those functions as much as possible, while simplifying it so it does remain fun, is possible, and something i'm looking forward too. 

Ken L.

Johns ....

John Armstrong had a MUCH greater impact on my perception of the hobby than John Allen ever could.  It was Armstrong who taught me the basics of what a 'railroad' did and how to go about modeling one.  I had seen John Allen's work, but have always found it a bit 'whimsical' ... I didn't even know that he ran operating sessions on the G&D until very recently, when I discovered some blogs discussing them.  I suspect it may be a 'generation' thing ... John Allen was 'gone' before I really became interested in the hobby and John Armstrong's books were really my introduction to model railroading.

John and John

Well now:  we had John Armstrong the operator and John Allen the artist.  Both were masters who changed this hobby for good for ever.  And you're right, Michael:  they should be remembered, by mentioning them and pointing newer modelers toward media that is about them and their work.

Every so often, I see a thread here or other places that ends up listing a variety of pioneers of the hobby, so I don't think they'll be forgotten.  Let's see, who haven't I see the name of lately:

Jack Work - That scratch built coal mine got me interested in more than running

Art Curren - Styrene and kit-bash expert:  I bravely hacked through mods to my Revell enginehouse

Lynn Westcott - just about everything:   for me it was my intro to electronics

Gordy Odegard - got me into N-scale.

P.S. And Dave:

Bill Vukovich - Indy in the 1950's

" Jack Work "

Yep, learned to build turnouts from him. and Whit Towers and Frank Ellison who's layouts struck me as more realistic than John Allen's. but they were all a product of their own time and what they did then don't much matter in this digital age as they would be on to new model railroading frontiers.....DaveBranum

I like 'em all

I like 'em all - John Allen, John Armstrong, Jack Work - and I like 'em each for different reasons. I think trying to rate people as to "greatness" is totally subjective - it's really how great they are TO YOU.

I actually got to meet John Armstrong in person, which was a real treat. John and I also collaborated to a degree on my mushroom story in Model Railroader (Jan-Feb 1997) because I wanted to get the record straight as to who really invented the thing. John was the first to publish the idea, but he saw the first mushroom in 1975 on a layout built by Richard Benjamin.

John Allen was an inspriation

I had always been interested in trains, real and model. While stationed at Mare Island while in the Navy in the late 60's, I was fortunate enough to have attended a number of operating sessions on Johns G&D. When I first saw it, I was awe struck. I had seen photos in magazines, but to see it in person, that was something else.  Needless to say, being in the service, stationed on a ship, model railroading was out of the question, but I never forgot his railroad and the many things that I had learned from him. He was one of the early masters.

...

History is disposable in a disposable society.

Some people need to grow up.... A LOT!!!!

I don't spend a lot of time posting on forums - especially on threads like this since they seem to lead to pointless arguments. I've had the pleasure of meeting many of the "Old Guard" modelers mentioned. I even worked closely with a number of them I knew John Armstrong in both my Navy and MR days, and worked with Art, Gordy, and several others who haven't been mentioned. One thing they all had in common? They were all, to a man, "Gentlemen" in the truest sense of the word. I can't imagine them - ever - telling another modeler they were or were not doing the hobby "right" or that they considered themselves better than anyone else. Sadly, there seems to be a lot of "my way or highway" in the hobby internet these days. If John Allen is truly your hero you should work on emulating the spirit of fun he exemplified and not use his name to pick on people who don't happen to see the hobby the same way as you. 

I agree with Joe

Couldn't have been better said

Marty, you could not have said this any better. If there's anything that we could do to honor the memory of the greats that have gone before us in the hobby, it's remembering that at the heart of it all is having fun with trains.

Picking on others because they have an opinion that doesn't match yours seems to run counter to the entire idea of a hobby - unless, I suppose, your hobby has become "see this chip on this shoulder?"

Back in the past

A name that is rarely heard any more is that of Paul Larsen, who was editor of Model Railroader in the 1950s. Larsen made the scratch-building that was pretty much mandatory at the time look attainable, and opened the pages of the magazine to a lot of experimenters. Larsen wasn't much of a self-promoter, but he was very good for development of the hobby. The magazines he produced are still well worth a little study.

Spaghetti

No, not really. At least not compared to other layouts of the time frame.  If you want to compare it to some of the narrow shelf layouts that are more prevalent today, then maybe so.  You should check out the "unwrapped" drawing of the plan sometimes if you've never done so.  It's quite enlightening.

Regards,

Michael

Truly my hero

So much so that I've decided to tear down my current layout and start anew with the plan of the original G&D. I've done it in N before and once before in HO but that attempt was aborted because of some space issues at the time. I'm going back to my "roots" and "modeling to my passion" as Joe  so eloquently phrased it not to long ago.

As for this statement....

 You're certainly entitled to you opinion but I don't feel I'm doing that at all. If anything I strive to defend him for the spirit of fun he exemplified and to defend his masterful creation  from those  who would try and belittle it by using such terms as "caricature" and "cartoon" when referring to it.  I've had a week to think about this and one thing that remains crystal clear to me and I've probably become even more focused on is how much John and the Gorre and Dapheitd mean to me personally.

Regards,

Michael