The Early Ideas

Well, after I cleaned everything up, this is what he'd gotten done up to now:

About 1/2 done.
PECO C83 track, DC (the controller in the drawer that's open under the layout).

The layout is in a large garage / office building on the property, and shares the space with a 1925 Ford truck (one original owner) that's getting rebuilt.
Air conditioned and in California, so no humidity to deal with.

The client realizes that 3' is a very tight space for HO (and the one turnback curve doesn't accomodate some of the brass geared steam he wants to run) and so he wants to expand on both sides to create a point-to-point with a continuous-run option / drop in.

So Phase 1 (tentatively):

And Phase 2 (conceptually):

The large peninsula will be a larger town, like in the Sierra Nevada foothills, with a logging site high above it on the far left side.

Any / all industries are decided by the client: he had a modeler building craftsman kits that some of which are already present but some will show up down the line, so part of the challenge is to allow for enough room for future structures with vague dimensions.

Eventually, all this space will be fabulous geared steam layout:

(That table at the bottom is where the large "Phase Two" peninsula will be).

[cont.]

layout in kitchen

Is there an access hatch to the sink? Does the water tower have anything to do with turning on the water?

Do you have some plan for a loop to bring the trains back down for continuous running or are the kids going to run up and back?

On a serious note how is Grandpa doing? I hope he is able to recover and then he can run the trains with the grand kids. Also M.C. helping out someone in his predicament is a fantastic thing to do glad you were able to find the time. I hope the hobby shop folks let him know what a fine modeler you are.

Excuse the initial comments not all of the information on your post loaded when I first opened it. Particularly the rest of the track plan and phase 2. Comment 3 still stands it is a very nice thing that you are doing for Grandpa.

Rob

Done

The client had already finished half the 3'x16' layout, to a high degree of scenic detail:

Track ballasted & wired, landscaping, greenery, and trees installed, craftsman wood mill and trestle detailed and planted, etc.

And he wanted (understandably) to keep as much of the earlier work as possible.

The challenge is that much of the track was uneven, and then permanently set that way in a scenery goop of sand, white glue, and cement.

So rock solid that a 170 lbs. dude can stand on it:

Which is good, considering that the track that needs replacing is back in the corner, and the only way to access it is standing on it:

Of course, given the wooden mill, log dump, road bridge and trestle, there's only one place where my size 9 1/2 Chuck Taylor can plant itself.

So chiseling out all that rockwork & track in the back becomes a sick and twisted game of John Henry Twister.

Here's the close-up of the back corner (a "before"):

All of that is rock, rock solid and tight, tight trackwork that had uneven warpage that needs to (and is being) replaced.

There is no saving any of this track: pounding away with a chisel destroys everything, including the spongy WS risers underneath.  So a new sub-roadbed will be needed to get slipped in as well.  So the trick is to chisel away, but not too much, and leave something hard to attach new roadbed / track in the future.  All while contorted over the delicate structures.  Woot!

[no, can't soak it all out as that would disintegrate most of the other scenery (the stuff he wants to keep) and chipping away carefully actually keeps more control and leaves enough stuff to build upon later]

The tunnel will eventually be the route to the logging site of "Phase 2".

[cont.]

To make an omelette...

Rob: thanks for the kind words.
There's no sink there.
Just counterspace on which most of the layout is firmly planted.
(It is HEAVY, especially with all the concrete and sand!)

Grandpa is doing relatively well: fighting the good fight and continuing his treatment and his real work (tending vineyards).
If anyone can beat the bad stuff in his bones it's him.
Lots of heart and will.

And, heck, his dad (age 94) is puttering around the property, too, tending the bees and harvesting the honey, so it'll take a lot more than cancer to stop this dude.

As far as the layout design goes, I'm actually (GASP!) winging it a bit.
Phase 1 will include a small mountain town, turntable and small yard for the mine, wood and quarry cars coming in and out.

Phase 2 will be a larger interchange with a mainline route (like some towns along the bottom of the foothills that dropped off cars to the SP, SF, WP or all of the above).

However, there will be a drop-in section that connection the two peninsulas for a basic continuous run for dummy-running / showing off during wine tastings / parties.

It took me awhile to get back in the groove, so I'm blogging about a month's worth of work right now.

So first I had to start CHISELING away the sand and cement and old track:

Which exposed some ragged and erratically shimmed WS risers.
(Notice I also cut away the existing truss bridge: need the space)

To even things out, I slipped some styrene between the WS risers and the cork roadbed and caulked it in place:

I cut the track all the way back to the first turnout, and I might have to exhume some of the other existing trackwork, but I'd like to see if trains run as is first.

Meanwhile, on the "new" end, I started laying out the Pink Foam: as the existing trackwork ended at 4" WS risers, it matched up pretty well with two layers of 2" Pink Foam.

The undersupports (no use using a whole sheet of foam under when not carving down):

This shot shows the two layers of foam in the original benchwork, as well as the Phase 1 expansion benchwork:

I used a 16"x48" L-girder framework that I had hanging around in my garage at home for the parallel peninsula and then built a box to connect the two.
I used bolts because while this isn't a portable layout, at some point it will make it easier to take apart.

He used WS risers and plaster cloth for the first part, but I'm using Pink Foam and spackle for the new part, so we'll see how it meshes.

[cont.]

Rock on

So I chiseled out most of the track and rockwork along the back elevated shelf:

Also built a control panel for the left side of the original layout: a paper diagram between two sections of plexiglass with holes drilled through for the momentary toggles.
(That was version two: the first I ripped apart by using a normal bit to drill the toggle holes.  A special bit from TAP Plastics made all the difference, even without a drill press)
Haven't quite figured out how to mount it on the fascia: debating magnets or angled moulding or both to allow access behind for wiring.  All suggestions appreciated.

The rock-blasting (which ripped off most of the skin on my hands) continued while the Pink Foam was being caulked and cured on the extension:

Notice the truss bridge is now a nice part of the branch line that disappears to the mine scene on the other side of the peninsula:

The mine will actually be an Inglenook and a worthwhile trip to "the other side"--plus it "expands" the layout exponentially (by having operators move around to another scene) without increasing the benchwork.

My client had built the truss about 20 years ago, and so I had to rip out the track & stringers and rebuild it:

Easy 30 minute build with C83 ME bridge track, stripwood, C55 guardrails, and Grandt Line NBW details (above is pre-painted) that allowed his original truss to remain but the rails to run smooth throughout.

[cont.]

Foamersize

Thank goodness I didn't go to the gym the two mornings I shaped the foam: by the end of the day I was so soaked in sweat I could have been an extra in Gladiator.

Had the vacuum going the whole time as well.
Usually have the garage doors open to get a nice cross breeze through the space, but when forming foam the pink goes EVERYWHERE anyway so less wind the better.

After carving with knife and forming tool, and then sanding, I spread the spackle here and there to mask the 2" lines.  (Given the size of the project, I went ahead and got a big bucket of the spackle stuff).

Gave a quick painting of tan latex on the foam, and then laid some new track on the upper back level:

Extended the passing siding, as that's the main managing point for the mine.
The turnout control wires had already been installed (and embedded in the concrete), so I just wired up the Peco snap controls to those (will be on the right-side control panel).

Also stained and installed (with caulk and Mr.T-Pins) the cribbing for the truss bridge:

I like to get the landforms shaped, plastered and painted before installing track (especially since you can't spray-bomb track on foam unless it's painted first or it'll melt).

[cont.]

If You Can't Reach The Fire, Reel Out More Hose

After laying down the foam, and forming it, and then after playing around with the Peco C83 turnouts and track, it became apparent that a wee bit more space was needed on the Phase 1 peninsula for the yard tracks, mainline curve, and town buildings (he's got a LOT of small "woodsy" structures that he wants to fit in, which will look really good, an almost N-scale scenery to track ratio) (and that's a complement )

So I built a 2'x2' box with legs and strut supports and bolted it on (on the right with the bucket o' metal bits and other weights pressing down to set the foam):

Soon there'll be 1/4" MDF fascia wrapping around it all and painted to blend in to everything else.

Got an order of PECO turnouts in a couple days ago, so I was able to start laying out the quarry and the approach to the town:

The ends of the turnouts are not symmetrically flush, so it was a little surprise and chore to file the ends and solder the turnout straight.  The Peco turnout machines are awesome and easy to install: snap!  Though a little noisy in operation.

For the quarry tracks I hacked out a bunch o' ties and gave it that "helter skelter" look:

Don't worry: it's all about layers.
Layers of spackle and dirt and sand and gravel and grout and it'll look like a decent quarry, with the right track the steam shovel and empties-in line and the left track the loading and loads-out line.

One of the cool things about HO is not having to worry so much about scaling down the dirt!

I do still worry about crap falling down into the switch machines, so I lined the holes with masking tape to help prevent stray stones sticking up the works:

I darkened the ground under the points with a black marker so I won't have to worry about laying down heavy ballast (which, here, will most likely be cinders and/or dirt).  After laying all the track, then stuffing up the holes, then painting the track, I think it'll look okie dokie.  But any suggestions are, of course, appreciated.

Alrighty.
That's where I am at this point.
(My daughter "graduated" from 5th grade so I didn't make it out to his layout today).

Have already built a shelf and installed the NCE DCC system (PowerCab and Smartbooster), so with more track getting laid down this next week and a PSX coming in for the reverse section, we should have trains running soon!

Thanks for looking.

I like it, thanks for sharing!

Wow!  What an opportunity and inspiration for many of us.  It is fascinating watching a layout come back to life, I will be following this blog with a passion.  Thanks so much for sharing (and helping grandpa fulfill his dream).  

Thanks!

Thanks, Dave.

The layout's owner has some amazing brass Climax and Heisler locos with sound that will look great running through this scenery, but will require some kickass trackwork (which might require more "refurbishment" of existing trackwork).

We'll see!

It's a fun project and I'm enjoying learning about and working in "Horribly Oversized" scale

Samuri San!

You are truly living up to your reputation!  I'm currently working on a complete redo for someone that is child's play compared to this. You have my deepest respect! As if you didn't have it after your superb feature on kids and modeling.

Peter Burr

Nashville, TN

Wondering

I was wondering where you'd gone the last couple months, M.C.  Glad to see you are keeping busy!  Can't wait to see what it looks like.

Yet another- - -

fine piece of modeling.   MC, you're ambiscaleous - can work in any scale.  Actually, I made that word up.  But it's OK to quote me on that!....

(H)On Ward!

Thanks for the kind words.
Ambiscaleous?  Hmm...  Sounds a bit itchy and something I should call my doctor about

I am enjoying learning about building a layout in Horrible Oversized scale

I find trackwork actually more difficult: while most N scale track stays flat and even over almost any kind of surface, HO track seems to cant a bit, even on flat foam surface.
Guess it's exponential

Case in point:

This section of PECO C83 tucked in with some ME Bridge C83 would seem like a smooth section of track.
(Especially when all joints are soldered and all sections feeder-dropped)
Yet the brass geared steam seem to take exception and start to stall in fits & starts up the grade.

I'll get to the running issues later.

Here's the new grade up from the existing layout to the new section:

Seems smooth enough, but... hmmm.

Got the backside mine branch laid down:

The mine tipple (which I'll probably build) will come out from the foam shelf over the near track and have a shute for the middle track.
The outer track will be the team / supply track for the shed at the end of it (which is why it's short).

On the other side, the quarry tracks are in, as well as the tracks all the way around to the Company Town.
But here's the beginning of the trestle and freighthouse/team track scene:

(Remember that the structures are made by a dude in the MidWest [which I've heard exists somewhere East of Mt. Diablo ] and I'm just building the benchwork and installing the track & some scenery)

[cont.]

Tracking Changes

For the large mess-o'-turnouts for the Company Town on the extension, I soldered them all together and then slapped on some feeders before planting:

Notice that I'm using Peco Insulfrog turnouts.
Given the finicky nature of the brass geared steam, I'm thinking we should have gone with Electrofrogs, but there it is.

Here's the whole fixture:

 Channels in foam for some switch machine wires, holes poked in foam into channel near baseboard for others (turnout control panel will be immediately before it).
Painted foam with latex mistint brown first for when I spray-bomb track.
Black squares on surface are permanent marker under points to indicate where caulk doesn't go and to help out with less ballasting in that area.

Here's the overview of the area:

Originally I had another curved turnout between the two runaround turnouts, but it just worked out better to have the #6.  HO is so large it really allows for more movement between couplers and locos and rolling stock, so that diverging route works fine (remember that the geared steam runs at about 5 mph ).

After trying out some of the Client's geared steam, we found it started & stopped a lot, especially on turnouts.
Perhaps because the installer didn't put in a capacitor to glide it over slight soiled spots?
Or maybe a slight cant of the track throws off the brass trucks?

Hmm...
Am learning.

But I did realize that Peco cuts some channels in their plastic ties so I installed a bunch o' feeders to ensure good conductivity rather than relying on the bump-&-grind of the points:

And doing that to the 20-something turnouts, and installing some more track, took most of the afternoon.

And here's a brief video of yesterday's first trial run:

With all the starts and stops edited out

Just picked up about 5 more geared steam locos from the LHS that the client had custom tweaked with DCC & sound, so we'll see how they run on Monday.

Thanks for looking, and any comments and suggestions appreciated!

MC, that layout is going to

MC, that layout is going to be way more killer then the owner originally anticipated!

Re: HO brass - In Northern California Free-mo, We found that brass is extremely picky! Not only will it require perfect track but also you may need to adjust the trucks (brass trucks are hand built, and may not be truely square) and the pickups to the wheels. It helps to have keep alive in the locomotive if at all possible. Short wheel base locomotives are exceptionally picky.

As a test train one of our participants has a PA/PB (trucks inset far from the pilot and short wheelbase) power set we use to check joints between modules and such. If it works, anything will.

Chris Palomarez

Why did the original track buckle?

 I'm curious why because it looks like the owner did pretty good work on the original part of the layout. Was it due to the foam base or some other benchwork problem?   Instead of chiseling out all the old track it might have been easier to just pull the rails off and lay new flextrack over the old ties after smoothing the route with putty? ...DaveBranum

"Realism" over "realiability"

The client thought that, to get the look of the wobbly mountainous lumber trackage he actually had to lay the track wobbly.

It's laid on WS white styrofoam risers (partially melted over time) with an eclectic assortment of cheap styrofoam shims and cork that was hot glued (thus melting the risers below it).  Many short bits of track soldered helter-skelter together with much cant here and there.

Really would like to take the HO equivalent of the N-scale Kato NW2 (which can run over any type of trackwork or even a scale cow) to see if any loco can make it over that track.  But it really might be a moot issue.

The brass geared steam is having such trouble over my smooth trackwork that I'm probably going to have to rip up and re-do all of his original trackwork.

And if the HO brass geared steam is that finicky, then I might have to rip up and relay everything flat and nice.
Unless there's some way the installer can fit a capacitor in there somewhere (A "Keep Alive" is way too big for the brass locos)

I'm a bit confused, as installing a sound decoder in an N-scale steamer doesn't take up that much space and a capacitor is de rigueur (normal) to insure no starts & stops.  Even if there's no space inside the loco, you can't hide a capacitor on the side as a pump?

The main concern: what's the point in redoing the track to 98% Nice if the locos are going to stall over it unless it's 110% nice?
I can keep ripping up track and relaying it, but if the locos are going to stall at each butterfly-wing-beat...?
I'll talk to the dude who installed the decoders, replaced the motors and installed pickups, but this just seems a lot of issues for a big scale where the weight and length of wheelbase should insure proper pickup 24/7/365.

Or am I missing something?

Physics?

Taller the loco the more "sway"?

Or?

I tried his Bachmann Shay and it stuttered, too: had to place my finger on the aux tender to get movement.

The track is way clean and pretty smooth (way more smooth than most of our N scale stuff).
This section is nary a bump when I run my fingers over it:

Do I need to tweak the SuperBooster to smooth out the signal?
(How?)

Or is it just the Brass geared steam?  And if the trackwork isn't flat and perfect then it won't work?
(And if that's the case, I'm going to stop right now and redo the whole layout as a flat no-turnout design)
He needs super-reliability to run trains with grandkids.
And the trains he has are brass DCC sound beauties.

Suggestions?

"Suggestions?"

   I'd take a modern small HO loco like a Bachman 44 tonner( which had no problem pulling cars around my roughly laid 12 inch radius Harlem Transfer test loops) and see if it can run on the track and if it has no problem I'd just make the brass locos shelf queens or static scenery for now  and go with more reliable equipment for the grandkids to run. If a 44 tonner can't get around the layout then there might be some wiring issues hiding in the foam somewhere? I doubt new track could be dirty enough to cause contact problems but it might not hurt to clean it with alcohol or other solvent just in case there is manufacturing oil on it?  Good luck !!  .DaveBranum

Geared Brass : Design Optimisation FTW

Dear MC,

Having tuned a significant ammount of HO brass, (both geared and rod), I would point you to check the following:

- Clean the wheels

Sounds basic. but many brass locos do not have solid NS wheels. IF the loco was originally equipped with NS-plated wheels (recent brass releases often are, older brass often were not!), and the NS plating has worn off, dirty-wheels and bad wheel<> rail pickup symtoms follow.

- Check the "as-designed" pickups/optimise pickup array

Many Geared Brass locos only pickup from one side of each truck. Result? Even 1" of questionable railhead surface on one rail only is enough to stop a loco stone cold.

If running DCC, a "stay alive" decoder may help/mask this issue,
("masking" any issue is by-definition a fudge,
and points to a failure to properly diagnose and rectify the actual root cause of the problem...)

but as a standing rule for any loco (brass/plastic/whatever),
any wheel on a loco which is not paying-it's-way by providing electrical pickup is a waste of space.
(You haven't seen "unstoppable performance" until you've seen a Mantua Mallet with pickups on both-sides of all 6x drive axles, + the leading and trailing trucks, + both-sides of all-4 axles under the tender!).

This is why (and I have to say I found Jim Six's recent comments intriguing in this regard) the majority of 4 and 6-axle diesels appear to be more pickup-reliable "fresh out of box" than equivalent "fresh out of box" steam offerings.

- check for shorting

When the loco hesitates, are we sure it's from bad-pickup Open circuit, or is it possibly from a Short circuit condition?

Brass locos often only insulate one side of each axle/wheelset, and use the entire truck sideframe+bolster plus the frame as part of the electrical path. Result? Have one of the trucks "kick" over a little too far and touch part of the frame = momentary short circuit.

If we are talking older PFM or United locos, the insulation between wheel centre and tread/flange/rim may be nothing more than a thickness of paper. If that paper degrades (which it has been known to do over time), then hard-to-find intermittent shorts follow...

- check the mechanical config

Common brand/era Brass geared locos have a number of points in the mech which are known as potential binding points. In some cases, something as simple as re-assembling the steam-engine<> truck sleeve unis (I'm thinking shays here) 90-degrees out of alignment/"sync" (typical when a shay is picked up incorrectly, the truck rotates too-far, and "drops the shafts"), can cause a truck to "kick" once per driveshaft revolution. Kick hard enough, and the loco can be thrown off balance with resulting intermittent pickup symtoms.

Scenery caught/wound up in the driveshafts can cause excess resistance. Geared locos are more-prone to this than many types of locos, esp shays with the sideshafts spinning at high rpm close to overhanging woodland scenics polyfibre and similar.

Virtually all PFM and United brass geared locos use a sprung truck-mounting. Turn the loco over, and you'll likely find the truck screw head appears a long way from the bottom surface of the truck bolster.

http://www.danstraindepot.com/ebay/2011-12-28-17-10-12-DSC02118.jpg

If the locos in question are so-equipped, there is a spring between the head and the bolster, providing up to 1/8" travel. Point being, many common brass geared locos actually have more flexibility between truck and frame than common plastic athearn-style diesel mechs.

On a related sidenote, worn worm<> worm-gear and central gearboxes (often with brass-on-brass gear configs) can bind if not thoroughly lubed properly. The resulting intermittent bind/release friction changes can cause intermittent operation.

From a "electro-mechanical" P.o.V, there is no reason why a 4-axle 2 truck geared loco can't be just as reliable as a plastic 4-axle diesel. Strongly suspect some basic loco maintainence and design-optimisation will provide the desired level of reliable slow operation (and is IMHO a far better spend of time and resources than simply "throwing technology" at the problem...)

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

pickup stinks

MC,

Sounds like a pickup problem over anything else. The Prof has some good instructions. To add to what he said, You could simplify the track plan, but the problem will persist and eventually get worse.

My best suggestion, see if the DCC guru knows a brass locomotive prodigy and see if that person can help adjust the locomotives so they operate reliably. Brass, especially old brass, by virtue of it's collectibility isn't designed to operate out of the box After some tweaking and adjustment, I'm sure things will operate significantly better and you won't have to relay nearly as much track as you thought.

Chris Palomarez

How about

a small test bed of perfectly laid track with curves and points to the same radius as the layout.  I am talking 120% perfect here.  That could then be used to check the brass locos.  If the locos work fine on the test track then parts of the old layout may be the problem.  If they don't and other less finicky locos run smoothly on the layout then at least you have halved the problem either way.

Peter

hmmm ...

Brass (as others have commented on) can be very finicky, and one can really pull a lot of hair out before finding the  problem (generally a pick-up or a short to the frame); however, with the Bachmann stuttering, I am not so sure.  I would 'think' that HO would be more forgiving than the N-scale that you are familiar with; so I'm wondering if perhaps there has been some breakdown in the insulation or corrosion while the locos were in storage?  Perhaps they need a good cleaning and lube (or was this completed with the DCC/Sound installation)?  I am not all that familiar with DCC, but imagine there is a small chance that is the source of the problem as well.

Perhaps your LHS would give you a 'loaner" HO loco that is a reliable runner?  Or perhaps there is another DCC layout/test track available where one could test the locos?  It would be very nice to be able to isolate the problem to the track (unlikely I would think based on your experience), the DCC/power system, or the loco's before one starts really tearing things apart looking for answers.  Good luck in all of this.  Cheers.  Dave O

Inadequate loco pickup or rough track?

Sorry to hear of the operational problems with the geared brass locos. Unfortunately, most brass operates this way due to poor wheel contact, since less than half the wheels on the track are providing electrical contact. This works in O scale because of it's greater mass, but it took many years before the manufacturers figured out what a difference all-wheel pickup made in performance, first in N scale, then in HO. This is also one of the reasons a diesel usually runs better than a steam loco. The problem is only made worse by the addition of DCC and sound to locos with already inadequate pickup.

Usually, because of their separate  trucks, the brass geared locos will run better than rigid wheel-based locos, so I think multiple factors may be at work here. I think at least part of your problem may also be due to too sharp radii and dead frog turnouts. With a three foot table width, the curves must be 15" radius or less, and that kind of curve is too sharp for reliable operation in HO. Even if a loco will run on such sharp curves, it will be operating at the edge of reliability. I have also heard that the Bachmann Shays, as beautiful as they are, have their own pickup problems as well, although I haven't been able to run my own enough to verify this as fact.

I agree that before you tear up any more track, you should first try testing the layout with a good operating loco known to not have pickup issues, but it'll still need to negotiate those sharp curves. A Proto 2000 0-6-0 switcher comes to mind, as does a short diesel with Kato style drive like those from Atlas, Stewart and Intermountain, although they may not be happy with curves under 18" radius. The Atlas Alco HH660 switcher should be able to run the sharpest curves, due to it's short length, but may also be the most sensitive to the dead frogs. The Atlas GP40's are well proven, but I'm not sure of their minimum radius.

Good luck, and please keep us posted with this blog.

Thanks,

Bill in Ft. Lauderdale

I can attest to the finicky

I can attest to the finicky of brass and that sometimes the fix can be easy. Had a PFM 0-6-0 that was shorting at places and then stopped working, my buddy looked at it on the shelf and said the quartering was off, fixed that and it ran but not perfectly, looked under magnification and noticed one of the side rods had a bend, obviously that was what made it go out of quarter in the first place. Straightened it and now no problems. Had a shay that I have not finished fixing but part of the problem was the square tube on the gearing was too long by a hair so that it didn't like curved track at all.