Scratchbuilding & Kitbashing Ain't Dead

Why the wailing and gnashing of teeth and the wearing of sackcloth and ashes?

Have you checked out the scratchbuilding and kitbashing forum on 'the-gauge'? http://www.the-gauge.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=22&sid=a1336e54636caba616689635e2ffcd33

How about checking the Railroad Line Forums http://railroad-line.com/ ? Like, say, the Craftsman's Corner? or Starting from Scratch? Look back several years, there's some interesting stuff out there.

How about the Brass Loco Builders Forum on Yahoo? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/brasslocobuilders/?yguid=71526938

Or the Yahoo Scratchbuilders Forum? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Scratch-building/?yguid=71526938

Seems to me that scratchbuilding/kitbashing is alive and well.

As for prices, BFD. My first Athearn kit cost be $1.29 in 1957. That's the equivalent of $9.90 today. The Athearn rubber-band (aka Hi-F) drive F-7 was $6.95 ($53.35 in today's dollars). The trucks were crude pot metal castings and the locomotive had two speeds: stop and low supersonic.

In 1959, PFM brought out a model of the Southern Ps-4 Pacific. It cost $49.95 then or the equivalent of just over $370 of today's dollars. That's pretty comparable to something you'd get from BLI. However, for that kind of money from BLI, you can get sound and DCC. AND, it's already painted. It will also probably run better than the PFM loco right out of the box.

A Silver Streak caboose went for about $3.25 in the late 50's. Only the sides were painted and couplers were not included.  That's about $24 in today's dollars before you take into account the cost of the couplers.

I once sat down and figured out the cost of one of the old wood and metal Walthers passenger cars vs. the new plastic RTR ones. In order to bring it up anywhere close to today's standards, you would have needed a superdetailing kit, interior kit, a nice set of Central Valley trucks (roughly the same cost as the caboose mentioned above), couplers, decals and paint. By the time you were through building the thing, your cost was about the same in inflation adjusted terms as the equivalent RTR model would be today. The modern equivalent would be much better in terms of overall realism.

As Joe has said, you don't have to kitbash or scratchbuild to enjoy the hobby now. It's now a case of "want to" rather than "have to".

Apropos John Allen, he admitted at one point to Linn Westcott that it was easier to write an article for MR and then take the proceeds to purchase something he wanted. As a matter of fact, his later locomotives were all Japanese brass rather than the kits/kitbashed jobs of his earlier years.

Mike

I still get a sense of a job well done

I still get a sense of a job well done. Take the CV turnout ties I'm using as a "jig" to build turnouts. I'm buying the ties and they have rail slots in them already, so the task of laying rail is a no-brainer. You could call it a kitbash, or maybe even a "cheat". Is it still scratchbuilding to use premade parts and assemble them into the final product like this?

I'm thrilled I can buy all this premade stuff and as a result my turnout construction process is much faster and the result is more reliable operation.

I suppose it depends a lot on what floats your boat in the hobby. For me, it's realistic ops. Everything else is just what I do to get good ops. If I can buy it rather than build it, then I will often take that route. When the layout runs flawlessly, I don't think "wow, what a bummer - I bought instead of built this stuff.

No, I'm just grinning and thrilled to no end that it's all working well. I get a very strong sense of "job well done" and I may not have scratchbuilt squat in more than a few cases.

What problem?

Sorry, but you have no sympathy from me.  I can't see how the way other modelers enjoy the hobby should affect how you do, and you haven't explained what has arisen that stops you from kitbashing or scratch building models.  Scratch building and kitbashing do continue.

Kit Bashing Scratch building and Modeling

If you think about it all of us or almost all of us Scratch build and Kit bash.

Anyone here that has every built a tree from weed sticks and foam = Scratch building.

Anyone here that has ever replaced a horn hook coupler for a Kadee = Kit bashing

now these 2 things may be in there lowest form of kit bashing and Scratch building but never the less that's what you have done. Now yes some people that Kit bash go to much greater extremes Like combining a Flat car with a caboose to make a crane tender, or taking 2 different structure models and rearrange the plans to mix and match both models to build a totally different building altogether.

If you have a model railroad in your basement that you designed the track layout the mountains, rivers, valleys, Bridges and ect.. even if all the parts came in pre packaged boxes you have just scratch build a Model railroad. If the whole Railroad came in one big box then you built a model. If you altered or changed the plans in that box any way you kit bashed.

For the most part Scratch building has always been looked at a taking raw material and producing a working or static model of something you couldn't just buy pre-made.

so actually weather your Building Kits or combining kits or starting with a box of raw material and ending up with a Southern Pacific Cab forward it's all Modeling. I say go and do your thing and then if you do a really good job show it off and no mater what, we will all at one time or another Scratch built or Kit bash a model to get the results that we require for our individual Railroads. NOW Go Have Fun and show us your work so others can copy you learn from you and share with you and help keep Model Railroading alive for the generations to follow.

Dan

Puzzling to me

When did throwing together a shake-the-box Athearn kit become "the craftsmanship that built this hobby"? Athearn Blue Box kits seem to be cited often by those who wish to present themselves as experts in the hobby.

Scratchbuilding is fine, RTR is fine. Having the choice is fantastic for the hobby.

The goal is

My goal is to build an accurate representation of X railroad at X point in time. If an accurate kit or assembled model is available, fine. If not, clear off the workbench and get the tools out. Lots of scratching and bashing around here when necessary.

Have the hobby police raided your house and seized your stripwood?

My Goal is

My goal is to just have fun & loose myself in my hobby where ever it takes me. I've been around the world north and south and around & around 5-1/2 times east to west. I've done my service to my country, got married had a son who is now almost 27. In October My home will be paid off and I am partners in 2 successful businesses and work as an emergency medical courier to maintain my health insurance. everything else goes into my Railroad except I also build military tanks in all scales just for fun when the Railroad pisses me off. I also dabble in Paleontology. I build antique reproduction furniture and sometimes I even go fishing.

I wish everyone if not now will someday be as fortunate as I am. The one thing I enjoy more than anything else is I My latest endeavor "the Rio Grande Southern" in HOn3 and what ever it takes to build the buildings as well as all the other structures, turntables, and assorted railroad related equipment known to be on the RGS that are not available now if they every were. Now I have been collecting blue prints, photos, Drawings and almost everything related to the RGS for more than 16 years and Scratch building is the only way I can acquire 90% of what I need to come as close as I can to reproducing the now Extinct Railroad. Im have a number of plastic Models of stations that have been offered over the years but I plan on using the plastic models only as guides as I build them using Bass wood Brass sheet and other materials to build more realistic and authentic structures.

Now as I'm getting track laid and areas ready for structures Scratch Building will be my main modeling technique.

Actually running Trains and timetables and playing coal tycoon is just not my cup of soup. I'd rather have a rugged mountain railroad from a time gone by cuffing and chugging wheels slipping on a 4% up hill grade pulling a dozen cars over flimsy wooden bridges and along dangerous mountain cliffs at 5 miles an hour than to pull a 150 car coal train with 6 other guys running different trains on the same Railroad at the same time but that's me. I'm a loaner that doesn't mind sharing my 50 years of knowledge of modeling and construction with others I just like to be in charge at all times when it comes to my RR and as My dad always said about me is I don't play well with others .

Now don't get me wrong I'm in no way putting down all you guys that like the club type atmosphere and like working with a group in tight quarters with radios and voice commands from one end of the room to the other in fact I admire what Joe and others have done and are doing with their Railroads it's just not my way

Dan

RGS modelers are fortunate

And you are very fortunate to have available the Collman, McCoy & Graves umpteen-volume The RGS Story.  I can't think of a more thoroughly documented railroad.

As some one the same age, but new to the hobby

As someone who is new to the hobby, and the same age as you, I'd like to suggest that perhaps you could share the great wealth of knowledge you have picked up.

I'm not being sarcastic, I would really appreciate it if you could post up some threads of your work not only after they're done, but imore importantly n process.

Highly detailed photographs and or videos are of great use for those of us who are still gaining information.

For example, Tim Warris's series of free videos has done more for me when it comes to the hobby than any forum post that I've read. They are a great example of how the Internet can be used to share techiques and ideas to others.

I would also hazard a guess that as you and others who share you view spent the time trying to educate others through your example, you might find that the trend you perceive could be reversed - or at least you can say that you honestly made an effort.

Cheers!

Scarpia I have a Blog

and I have a number of Photos of what I'm doing and my bigest set back ( the loss of my Railroad building) that cost me a year of designing so that until I get my house paid off I'm building a practice railroad that will be removed and moved to the new Railroad building when the time and money allows. I have never been into photography I don't own a movie camera but I do have a digital and take photos as I go and they're posted under a number of Rio Grande Dan blog Posts.

Dan

Dan

I follow your blog, thanks! I've always kinda been jealous interested in the narrow guage western modeler's, so I keep tuned.

My post was in response to the original poster, sorry if you misunderstood.

different

This hobby "model railroad" has very different people. There's a big range. On one side you have fans who want to operate a layout. They need only tracks on bare plywood to have fun, as long there's a dispatcher who gives out train orders.

And other people don't want to operate. They want to create a model of some prototype, maybe a house true to scale. This includes scratch building.

I prefer operation. And the ultimate fun is operation at a well detailed layout.

Wolfgang

I enjoy kit building

With that being said, I think every model railroader is a "scratch builder/kitbasher", the question comes down to what you are scratch building or bashing.  If you build a layout, even if you buy all r-t-r rolling stock and locomotives, you still need to "scratch build" the scenery.  I suppose an exception would be if someone followed Dave Barrow's lead in building a layout with industry structures and track but little to no scenery or those who contract layout construction to one of the professional layout building companies, but most people who build a layout are going to build the scenery.  In ho scale, most of the structures except very small ones are only available in kit form, and prototype specific structures will probably need to be scratch built or kit bashed.  I guess the question is really "Do you spend your time building a layout, or spend it building detailed models?"

Kit bashing gone?

Brad,

    You pretty much explained the answer yourself. Like me, you model the GTW. If you wanted it, you had to do it yourself. You must be an over achiever.Athearn,Branchline,Accurail,Intermountain and Rapido have answered the call most recently. Still, parts for stations and coaling towers are alway's on my work bench. Come to Naperville this fall and join the fun. As always,the beatings will continue until the quality improves!

Paul Cervenka 

Scratchbuilding and Kitbashing

Scratchbuilding is not dead if you look for it. Other forums and most magazines post articles on this. Some of the younger crowd play more video games then build models like many of this did at their age. Our culture is also less likely to work on their own stuff. Mechanics hate me. Why because I work on my car. My dad does too. My father in law is more likely to take his to the shop because he does not want to bother with it.

Also, there are hundreds of good kits on the market, reducing a modeler's need to scratch build everything.

As for myself, I model the steel industry, and I model high tech. There are no kits available, so it will be scratchbuilt with very little kit or kitbashed models. This will be in N scale, and the tallest buildings will be over a foot tall.

Stogie

Creativity and Imagination vs. Convenience

I think what Brad is trying to say is that like so much of the rest of our culture, convenience and instant gratification seems to trump anything else.  Now, don't get me wrong, there are a lot of convenience items I'm glad I can get.  For instance, I don't have to hand lay code 55 N scale track anymore...  But pre-built, pre-weathered, pre-detailed structures?  Sorry.  Lucifer can't have that part of my soul just yet.

I think that the simple task of building a structure kit, or shaking that Athearn blue box, is an important step in developing the skill sets you need to keep the hobby challenging, and therefore interesting and engaging over the long term.  I think it also gives you the opportunity to express yourself in your art.  I always get a charge out of seeing how a skilled modeler has improved on a kit to suit his particular needs or tastes.  Likewise, I feel a little let down when I see an article in which every single element of the layout is easily identified as a commercially available piece. 

I think the biggest drawback to the current trend is the sacrifice of creativity and imagination.  And again, this is much broader than our hobby.  Imagine my horror when I saw that "Where the Wild Things Are" is being released as a movie.  That's one of the greatest children's books out there because it so heavily engages the child's imagination.  The story itself is about imagination.  But after the movie comes out, children will no longer have to be bothered with conjuring up their own images for the story... Hollywood will take care of that for them, and we can all now envision the monsters and adventures in lock-step uniformity. 

Likewise on our railroads.  Now, obviously, there will always be those who will bash and mingle.  Some for the fun of it, some for the economics of it, and we well always benefit from their efforts.  And I agree with Joe, that many of these items genuinely are time savers, so those of us engaged in operations or scenery or what-have-you can get on with what we really like to do... (Please, when is pre-fab wiring coming!) but for new people coming into the hobby, these products might be giving the impression that A:  This is an impossibly expensive hobby, and B:  There isn't much to do to keep you engaged.

So, to sum up, if you think that pre-fab and RTR is just great, then cool... whatever grabs you.  But step outside your box at some point, and try a little scratch build, or maybe mingle two kits together to get something really unique.  And you guys who think the craftsmanship is dead, everytime you pick up that Dremel tool or X-acto knive, you're proving yourself wrong!

Now go build something!

Lee

Brad, as some others have

Brad, as some others have previously indicated, the hobby today is far more diverse than ever before and, in fact, includes many groups, or subgroups, which in the past would not have honestly been regarded as model railroaders in the classic sense. Not only that, but in many ways participation in Internet forums gives a false perspective on what the hobby is really about today.

I found quite a while back that the guys heavily into scratchbuilding and those with the "Model Railroader-class" layouts for the most part tend to avoid the "general" model railroading forums, more often gathering on rather obscure, or limited access, forums (or subdivisions thereof) dealing specifically with their advanced hobby interests. From what I've seen participating in same, I very much doubt that the number of practicing scratchbuilders, or those with outstanding layouts, are today any less in number than at any time in the past. It's simply that their presence isn't all that obvious on-line.

A factor to be considered as well is that, beginning about the mid 1990's, the hobby saw an influx of new "hobbyists" who lacked the traditional modeling skills usually associated with model railroading and, as a result of the increasing availability of RTR equipment in all their various forms, were largely uninterested in acquiring the classic modeling skills. More often than not, these newcomers were satisfied practicing the hobby in a manner more akin to the way kids did with Lionels in the 1950's, rather than as any sort of classic craftsman's fashion. These folks also came to dominate most of the larger Internet forums. This situation is quite often reflected in the repeated basic questions posed and the layouts illustrated on the general forums...often giving the false impression that the average layout today consists mainly of track on roadbed, set on bare plywood/benchwork, rather than fully scenicked, highly detailed and realistic depictions of our world in miniature.

So, in regard to your initial post, I would suggest that if your interests tend toward advanced scratchbuilding and sharing your work with your modeling peers, you might want to try looking around carefully to locate some of the lesser known forums that specifically deal with more advanced model railroading aspects.

NYW&B

A factor to be considered as

A factor to be considered as well is that, beginning about the mid 1990's, the hobby saw an influx of new "hobbyists" who lacked the traditional modeling skills usually associated with model railroading and, as a result of the increasing availability of RTR equipment in all their various forms, were largely uninterested in acquiring the classic modeling skills.

Another factor to consider is those who speak as "experts", but who need to take a few lessons themselves.

Case in point, using an Elesco feedwater heater as if it were nothing more than a "hood ornament":

Hudson Highlands #720 engineer's side, not too bad, has the requisite injector and piping:

http://s64.photobucket.com/albums/h182/CNJ831/?action=view&current=MarIntChgC.jpg

Same engine, fireman's side.

http://s64.photobucket.com/albums/h182/CNJ831/?action=view&current=IMGP0869B.jpg

Note that it still has the injector piping and there is no piping for the feedwater heater. There's no way to get water from the tender into the heater and then into the boiler. That big "bundle" on the smokebox front on the engine would serve no useful purpose whatsoever on a real steam locomotive other than as a heavy and rather expensive decoration.

All one needs to do is check page 15 of the Model Railroader Locomotive Cyclopedia - Volume 1  to see a piping diagram for an Elesco feedwater heater. There's also a pic over on the GHQ website that shows a properly piped Elesco (in N scale no less). You'll have to page down about 2/3 of the way. On this particular model, the air compressor was put on the engineer's side to coincide with the prototype (CB&Q O-4 2-8-2).

Here's the link: http://www.ghqmodels.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3260

I will admit that NYW&B, CNJ831, CNJ999 is right about one thing. There are a lot of people out there whose knowledge is limited. On one forum (I disremember which), a picture of the fireman's side of HH #720 engine was posted and not one poster commented on the faux pas even to ask a question.

Of course, I'm just being nitpicky. Knowing how a feedwater heater was piped is probably not one of the "classic modeling skills".

Mike

Nice all the modelers who've come online have been interviewed

It's helpful that all the modelers who've gone online since the mid 1990s have been interviewed and we have compiled all these interviews so we can make a statement like this.

I don't know where we'd be without this all-knowing insight we've gained. [wink and grin]

That's why we've got more prototype-based layouts than ever in the hobby press - it's because of all these new  hobbyists who are not interested in doing layouts in the "classic" fashion.

FROM THE MRH READER SURVEY (approx 33,000 readers, 6.7% responding):

What is your preferred approach to the hobby?

 2.2% - Fantasy freelance (Hogwart Express)
21.0% - Freelance (Gorre & Daphetid)
31.7% - Proto-freelance (Virgian & Ohio)
38.1% - Prototype (model a real railroad like UP, CNW, NYC)
 7.1% - Don't know / haven't decided

Margin of error +/- 2.5% (99% certainty)

Prior to 1990, hobby press articles being published were mostly of modelers who were freelance (or fantasy freelance), with fewer articles showing modeling of proto-freelance or pure prototype modeling. Today, this survey suggests almost 70% are either modeling proto-freelance or pure prototype (among our online readership, at least).

Our circulation is almost double that of Scale Rails and maybe 40% of the circulation of Railroad Model Craftsman, so I would suspect our readership is at least in the ballpark and doesn't vary greatly from the modeling masses. Our current readership is somewhere around 20 percent of all worldwide model railroaders who are online, we suspect.

Joe sez: I don't know where

Joe sez:

I don't know where we'd be without this all-knowing insight we've gained. [wink and grin]

Well, Joe, there are experts and then there are "experts".

You created a whole website devoted to the building of your layout, complete with all kinds of neat features.

The other guy complains that the hobby is dying.

You did a whole series of how-to videos covering various aspects of the hobby and which actually entail the acquisition of some skills.

The other guy opines (on the MR site) that the 1950's were the "Golden Age" of the hobby.

You create a whole new magazine devoted to the hobby.

The other guy continues to bellyache about how the hobby is going to the dogs and that nobody wants to learn the "classic" skills anymore.

You've done more for the hobby in the last 6 months than just about anybody I can think of.

The other guy continues to put down those that don't practice the hobby in a way he deems suitable.

I may only be a "dabbler" and a "wannabe" according to that other guy, but you're the one I've actually sent good money to in order to acquire additional knowledge and apparently I'm in good company. That, in and of itself, should tell you something.

Mike

Well said

I really could not agree more!  Well said Mike!

A highly over-rated forum.  Too many coffee shops, cafe's and bars, IMO.  Lots of flaming discussions to lock and delete, and no tolerance for even constructive criticism of the host.

Couplers

I wouldn't call changing a coupler out kitbashing, I'd call that something I do to almost every car in order to fine tune it operationally.

Scratch bashing and Kit building

I honestly don't see that these so called lost arts are as gone as a lot of people think.  In my own situation I want to scratchbuild any bridges on the layout.  I also want to model the pulse plant I can see out my window and model a prototype power plant.  For the first time in my model railroad experience I want to handlay turnouts rather than buying the mass produced versions.  I just getting started with scratch building.  It's hardly a lost art here.  Rather it is a treasure just being unearthed! :o)

Yep

Scratchbuilding really isn't dead - one thing ready-to-run has done is make it possible to go scratchbuild other things you can't buy - meaning that accurate prototype modeling in-the-large is now practical.

If you model the 1953 Clinchfield, for example, do you *really* expect you'll be able to buy everything RTR?

Heck, I model the 1980s SP (and that's not exactly a small unknown road or a bygone era with no interest) and I can't buy everything RTR! But the fact I can buy enough stuff RTR and that I now have time to scratchbuild/kitbash other things (like cabooses) makes me no end of pleased.

But more RTR does not by itself mean there's automatically less scratchbuilding going on. Having a compelling alternative doesn't necessarily mean the old thing now dies. TV didn't kill radio, and DVDs haven't killed movie theaters, and cars didn't kill bicycling. Likewise, it's not a given that RTR will kill all scratchbuilding/kitbashing.

In fact, the dramatic shift to more prototype-based modeling plus the RTR marketing trend means modelers may be doing both: buying more RTR stuff and doing more scratchbuilding/kitbashing. Or at least still doing scratchbuilding/kitbashing. I'm not sure how you would measure with certainty if it's more or less scratchbuilding/kitbashing than in years past.

The main hobby press rag, Model Railroader, has moved away from an individual model-making focus to more of a wholistic layout-building focus. The other problem is the focus on prototype-based model building makes it increasingly hard to get your modeling article published. Would an article series on scratchbuilding/kitbashing rolling stock for the 1953 Clinchfield really get much of a readership? Not likely, so editors tend not to publish individual model-making projects as much now. Just because the articles don't get printed, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

For me as someone in the serious prototype modeling camp, it's thank goodness the "classic" hobby days of the 50s and 60s are behind us ...