Corporación Minera Cabeza Dura

At this time mineral rights, mine and millsite construction areas,  and right of way for railway have been procured on an 11' x 11' area deemed suitable for the extraction of minerals, primarily Oro y Cobre.

 Here is an excerpt from the recent right of way and primary infrastructure funding negotiations with the planning commissioner :

Representante para la Corporación Minera Cabeza Dura : "Honey, you know, that middle bedroom looks awfully messy with all of that stuff we have stored in there. How about if I build a storage unit with curtain fronts to hide all of that junk?"
 
Planificación Comisario: "Wow dear, that's a wonderful idea. Sounds like it won't cost that much either. Ya know, I could pick up some of those cheap Mexican blankets for the curtains "

Gotta love it when a plan comes together so beautifully.

Here is the basic layout I have arrived upon. It will be a 78" x 96" girder table with plywood road structure and light as possible scenery made of foam and/or plaster based papier mache covered with plaster in an effort to make the finished top unit movable in one piece. The girder structure will be 6" tall on a 35" tall base, and the "zero height" will be a foam base constituting the ocean and harbor. The "zero" track height will be another 2" above the water, so around ~42" to the lowest track and 52" to the Ore tipple trestle, and maybe 65"" to the highest peak of the island. The top will be removable from the base storage unit to allow removal through a 3' doorway (35" clearance). Here is the basic track plan I have arrived upon, drawn using Anyrail. The entire layout consists of 18 3' flex tracks and 4 switches, for a total track investment of "about a hundred dollars".

All curves are> 12" radius and all grades are < 4%. My largest loco will likely be an 0-4-0 and rollingstock will most likely be 24' maximum.

Here is a really rough sketch showing the basic topography and building layout. Darker shading is higher elevation. Blue is ocean....

This is my basic idea that fits the space I have and the budget available. I am quite open to suggestions, but bear in mind that I need to keep the initial track cost in ~$100 range and this is about the largest I can make this layout. I might add a spur in the town area yet and this volcanic island is still "molten" and could be shaped a bit still.

Thoughts or suggestions???

The Hard Head Mine Corporation?

The story behind that name ought to be interesting.

Den

Cabeza dura buscador de oro

Here is a picture of the founder of Corporación Minera Cabeza Dura conducting sampling in the proposed mine area....

Smells like Oro!

Update

I have been busy this week, but managed to keep the layout rolling. I decided to pick up some used gear from Ebay and Craigs list, and here is what I now have for the Cabeza Dura project:

 Got all of this and a bunch more stuff in a lot off of Ebay. Wasn't dirt cheap, but for $100 I got around $200 worth of stuff that I want, and will weed out what I don't and sell it off. I might keep this diesel if I think I can strip it down and make an S scale critter out of it, otherwise I will sell it off. Got one of those display Shell Oil steam locos sets too, most likely will sell it. Bunch of other stuff in the lot including a cheap Bachmann transformer and a bunch of wiring do-dads. The main gear I wanted out of this are the 6 #6 turnouts, the wye (all new in package), and the #4 NS one which is not new in package but looks ok. The crappy brass turnouts and all the brass track will go back on Ebay soon. Got one reversing loop switch and two yard switches, wish it was the other way around. Not sure what the vintage of this Atlas gear is, but you can see "Made in USA" on the packages , so I am guessing these have been sitting for at least 20 years. The lady selling this stuff got it from a relatives estate, and had no idea what any of it is, as evidenced by the included aquarium air manifold....

This Bachmann set I got locally off of CL for $40, all still in box with transformer and most of the track set to make an oval:

 This here was a really good deal, except for having to drive an hour to Awhatukee to pick it up. Loco runs real good. Going to bash this baby up and add an S scale cab and probably strip the tender down and make a wooden one. These cars are back in their boxes and will get sold again. Bit of a pain monkeying around reselling this stuff, but I am trying to keep my costs down. Should be able to get ~$50 for the stuff I don't want out of these two buys.

And here was my "caught in nostalgia" purchase off of Ebay:

The moment I saw these I was transported 40 years back in time, looking into the display case at the hobby shop where they kept the expensive brass locos on a yard made of this Truescale track. I figured I could blend these in, but there is just no way to make the ties and such match modern track. There is enough here to do a little shelf switching layout all in Truescale. I was surprised I won this lot for $30(+$17 shipping). I saw a handful of these turnouts go by yesterday, and the couple that sold went for $25 each. Four of these that I have are in near perfect condition, including the boxes and instructions.The motors even work, although one sticks to one side. This was my "swing and a miss" for this Ebay buying session. On the upside, with a little luck I can probably actually make a profit by selling these off one by one. If anybody here is a Truescale collector or is interested in maybe making a switching yard layout with them, drop me a message and maybe we can work something out before I put them on Ebay. I would be happy just breaking even and getting to enjoy a good blast of pure nostalgia.

Okay, back to the layout. I have been wavering back and forth as to whether I should make an Island layout or a U shelf one, and I have swung 180 degrees and am back to the shelf design. I can get a lot more running room with it. Here is what I came up with using the turnouts that I now have and lots of the 18" radius curves that I have now as well:

 42 " wide side shelves and a 32" wide one in the middle, there is a window there that needs access. The yard area on the right is level, and the left side is a mountain. In between is harbor.

And I had to explore what a complete doughnut would be like too:

      Things sure get a lot more complicated when you add a few more turnouts into the mix. I have dual reversing loops in both of these designs.

What are your thoughts and suggestions? What would you do with this space and the gear and ~$500 total budget I have for this project?

                                                              James

Kinda like the volcano best

 I'd probably straighten out the track thru the engine house and end it at the engine house , then add a run around/yard  track over by the junction to the high tipple track. Eliminating the connection from the rear of the engine house would let the mines in the volcano be better developed. Seems like it would be fun to shuttle ore from the mines to the tipple and miners and supplies from the dock to the mines? DaveBranum

Caldera

 I like the simplicity of the island layout. No backdrop for instance. The curves are a bit too tight though, and now that I have #6 switches it might be real tough to make it work out. The locale is going to be the same regardless of whether I go island, U shelf, or complete doughnut for a table. There will be mines and a harbor with a tipple for ore collection. In the two new designs using my new collection of turnouts I have a dual track engine house setup. I just have to figure out a way to keep my new hobby from taking over the entire house....

"The curves are a bit too tight though"

 If you place the island layout against the top  wall of the 11 by 11 foot room and allow 2.5 foot wide aisles on the other three sides it would give a 6 foot wide by 8.5 long foot table which should be enough to increase the curve radius a bit. I'd imagine an 18 inch radius would be enough for Sn42 critters running on HO track? The Sn42 guys can certainly give you the answer. In this case since it's an island with a volcano in the center a table type layout seems to capture the scene better than a strung out around the walls layout.?   .....DaveBranum

Curve Radius

I am sure the engines and rollingstock I intend to run on this layout will be fine with 18" radius curves. The original island layout has some that are close to 12", which the short wheelbase stuff I am running will do at slow speeds. The shelf layout has minimum 18" radius curves and mostly very wide sweeping curves where I could run at top speeds. I also really do want dual reversing loops which I just don't see how I can pack those in to the island design. The wife likes the shelf design better from a usability standpoint, as I do too, and this room really does have to remain a storage place for a whole bunch of stuff.

I do like the caldera concept, but that was really a product of what a circular island design with a mountain in the middle produced rather than a primary design fundamental.I wanted a reversing loop and I did not want a 4 foot long tunnel where trains could get stuck, so I thought of depressing the center, and viola!, I had a volcanic caldera. The actual table will not be built for at least a month, so I have time to decide still. When my turnouts arrive from that Ebay purchase I plan on tacking together something on a 4x8 out in the shop so I can fiddle around and see what works best and what I really want to do with this layout.

BTW, I posted this exact same thread over on that "other" MR magazine forum, and all I got was a bunch of blanket negativity.  Thanks for giving me your thoughts on the matter Dave, I really do appreciate it. And I really am open to any and all suggestions at this point, so everyone please feel free to toss out your critique of what I am planning and any suggestions about what you would do with the space and budget I have,

                                                                                                               James

What are you using for couplers?

Moving a 40 box car through a 12 inch radius curve in HO will take something other than the normal (X2F) if they are older train set cars or even standard Kadees.  Having worked on HO trolley lines, I found I had to use coupler extenders, much like the prototype to switch freight cars around radius curves under 18 inch radius, even when I attempted to use transition curves.

"Moving a 40 box car through a 12 inch radius curve in HO"

  40 foot cars with KD's should work on 12 inch curves, Here's a shot of a test loop I did for a harlem transfer layout. It's 90 foot inner track radius which is 12.41 inches. The cars are 40 and 50 foot cars with KD whisker couplers in both scale knuckle  and normal knuckle size. A couple of the cars even have P-87 wheels and still ran around the loop just fine. The  Bachman  44 tonner could pull about 6 or 7 cars before slipping the wheels. So I'd not worry about 30 foot or shorter cars on 12 inch but I'd go up to 15 or 18 inch just to make it look better........DaveBranum 

Am I on the right track?

@ Tom: For the most part I  plan on going with European style wagons like this:

 These have Hornby couplers which I intend to swap out to Kadees. The trick seems to be making sure that I get wagons like these with NEM sockets otherwise you have to attach a draft gear box. From what I have researched the longer Kadees work best with the geometry of these. Here is a thread about doing this. I think these wagons here will pass as S scale ore cars with no modifications. With this fixed axle type of rollingstock the maximum length of wagons is ~24' to operate correctly. Now, if I end up going with one of the plans here where I have 18" minimum radius curves I may well end up with some ~36' foot two independent truck type cars too. Definitely nothing modern, as my target time period is the 1880's, with a German / Mexican connection where the majority of the equipment for this line was imported from Germany. This is all new territory for me, so please let me know if I am missing something here.

@ Dave : Thanks for the visual demonstration of curve clearances. I think this looks ok, but obviously going around curves this tight will mean slow and steady speeds, and backing up would probably cause a mess. Anything tighter than this looks like it would require extended couplers? Right now I am sold on going with the U option, but I like the doughnut option too. Here is some changes I made to the U plan last night:

 I moved the spur on the yard side over to the edge to make it serve as a wharf siding to unload supplies and passengers. I uncluttered the area behind the harbor a lot by moving that reversing loop over to the yard area. On the left I continued the mine  highline around on a trestled loop over the harbor where it would be able to dump ore into a tipple, which in turn could gravity feed into a barge. Same as the original island idea. I need to work on getting the geometry of the harbor a bit better to fit a barge in there, but this is the general idea. Minimum radius on this layout is 18", with most of them being quite generous. Around the main loop I could do speed runs, even changing directions at speed using the two opposing reversing loops. There is a fair amount of switching action to be had as well.

Layout Design Challenge

Over the past few weeks I have been tossing around ideas for my layout. In this time I have acquired a fair amount of material, and the design keeps changing. I have an 11' x 11' room available for this project. Initially I was thinking that a free standing island would be the way to go, but I have since been exploring both U-shelf and Donut with duckunder designs. I am currently sold on the Donut with duckunder. I am aware of the hassle of having to duck under to access the back, but I am willing to live with this in light of the extra potential the donut gives me for design. Above you can see a basic donut design I came up with a couple weeks ago, along with a U-shelf as well. I have heard a lot of different thoughts on my design here and on other forums, and I would like to see some actual plans as to what others would do with the space and budget that I have.

Here is the basic design criteria :

11' x 11' room with entry in lower right, closet to the left of this door.

Location is coastal Mexico, circa 1880's. S scale using 16.5 mm HO track, that is Sn42 or Sn3.5

Industries to perhaps include but not necessarily limited to:

Gold / Copper  Mine

Building stone quarry

Harbor with ore loading , log loading, and fishing wharves

Cannery (Tuna and/or Sardines)

Sawmill provided with logs floated in rafts from California

~$500 total budget, about $200 of which is already spent. This does not include the base cabinets that will form the structure of the layout, they were part of the "Hobby Room" of our remodel anyways.

Here is a list of the track I currently have:

Nickel Silver:

3 #6 Left Atlas Turnouts

3 #6 Right Atlas Turnouts

1 #4 Right Atlas Turnout

1 Wye Atlas Turnout

2 - 30 degree crossovers

~20 Atlas Flex pieces (4 currently on hand)

Brass:

3 #4 Right Turnouts

3 #4 Left Turnouts

1 #6 Right Turnout

The challenge is this:

Using all or as much of what I have listed as you think is necessary, create a layout in the space that I have that includes as much of the industry as you think is necessary. This is obviously very loosely prototypical, I am not however aiming for a whimsical type of layout. I intend to use all of the NS turnouts, and may or may not use the brass as well. This is a photoshopped Anyrail plan showing the basic layout of the room with the donut I think works best.

If you think a shelf layout would be better, then by all means show me that. Here is the Anyrail Cabeza Dura Challenge plan on my skydrive  . The free 50 piece limited version of Anyrail is available here if you would like to use it, or I also have XtrkCAD and SCARM if you would like to draw using either of those. Also, if you want to just sketch something on a piece of paper and take a pic of it, that would work as well. I have heard many suggestions as to what I should do, so now is your chance to show me what you would actually do with what I have to work with. Thank all of you that decide to help my design process and have fun!

                                                       James Stoker

Track Plan Thoughts

Given your theme (NG, dinky trains on an island), I wouldn't worry too much about the tight radius, as long as it's comfortable for your rolling stock to negotiate.  Scenically, small radii will fine for your theme fine, though 12" in Sn42 does seem a bit too tight to me -- maybe leading to operating/clearance problems later.  So if it were me, I'd try to keep it to 15"+ and be willing to cheat a little if necessary, but that's not a big deal in my mind.

I do see a problem in that almost none of your track planning efforts so far include a run-around track.  You'd be limited to running trains in a circle, with no switching moves more complicated than pulling or dropping off a car or two as you proceed around the circle.  This just doesn't seem like much fun to operate.  I suggest you incorporate one, or better yet two, run-arounds (four turnouts) if at all possible.  This will give your railroad a purpose -- running from location 1 to location 2  -- and you'll have four more turnouts to create sidings, running both trailing and facing point directions, off of each run around.  I'd forget the brass stuff; it won't look right mixed in with the NS, and keeping it clean will be a headache.  I would allocate a few more $ to getting 3-5 more NS turnouts, which ought to give you enough sidings for 8-12 "industry" spots.  As Lance Mindheim recently noted, and as I've confirmed with my own layout, that's a fine number of spots for very satisfying one-man operation.  I've got 17 turnouts on my own layout (On30 in a 14x12 room), which I think is actually a couple more than someone needs for good one-man operation.  The reason I'm focusing on operations here is that layouts that just enable you to watch trains go round and round often lose your interest, whereas layouts you can "play with" in a semi-realistic way can keep your interest forever.  

Other thoughts: (1) Can you put the workbench in the closet to free up a bit more space?  I've done that and it works well. (2) I would not include the reversing loops you added to your most recent plan.  They require 4 of your precious turnouts without adding anything to operations.  Use those turnouts for industry sidings instead.  (3) I definitely prefer the around the walls approach to the island approach -- so much more real estate to work in, and you get to be surrounded by the layout for a better "feel" when you run trains.  (4)  Have you thought about an "around the walls" type of plan, with a removable bridge you would only have in place when running trains on the continuous loop?  I've got one in my plan -- very simple to make and it works fine.  You can also build the shelves on a series of hollow core doors, attach nothing but paint to the walls,and be ready to move in an afternoon if needed. My track plan incorporates all these ideas, and if you're interested,  it's on my website at http://www.sandysacerr.com.  

Finally, I don't have enough patience to give you a truly accurate final plan using your exact track specs, but here's a rough first sketch of one idea that fits your general concept and available space, and which incorporates my comments above.  

"none of your track planning efforts include a run-around track"

In a way that's the real beauty of the island plan. The loco pulls the cars to where it wants them then runs around the loop to get on the other end and shove them into the mine or the unloading trestle. Very much like the real Harlem Transfer operation in the Bronx. The reverse loops on the later plan allow the same run around potential , just one more reverse move and a throw of the switch is needed....DaveBranum  

Run-Around Tracks

Sorry Dave, but the Harlem Transfer to the contrary, I just cannot accept the idea that running all the way around a layout to push cars from the other end is even "semi" realistic.  99%+ of all real railroads use run-arounds to be able to service facing point turnout industry spots and to re-order cars in a consist.  The Harlem Transfer operation was almost unique, and it was necessitated by the lack of room for a run around plus a large warehouse in the real estate available, and the move around the loop to push cars from the other end went around a building, not around miles of track.  Yes there are several examples of very small model railroads (micros) with no run-arounds (check out http://www.carendt.com/microplans/index.htmlfor a few examples), but 11 x 11 is a much bigger space to work in -- plenty of room for run-arounds.

More problematic for James is his lack of room for turntables, loops, or wyes at both ends of his proposed railroad -- unless he devotes so much real estate for those that he has little room left for industry spots, which in my mind are the basic requirement for operating fun and semi-realistic operations.  In the 1880's, only steam locos were used, and very few steamers (Shays, Forneys, and ????) ran just as well going forwards or backwards, and were operated in just one direction, with no way to turn them for a run back to the other end of the line.

So James, one of the very first questions you need to answer for yourself is the basic one of just how and why you see yourself running trains.  Is this layout to be a display for your modeling skills, with scratch built equipment and structures, and the trains as just one small element in the display?  The kind of layout where "operations" are totally irrelevant?  Look at Smuggler's Cove (http://www.modvid.com.au/html/body_smugglers_cove.html) or Muskrat Ramble (

Or is your layout's purpose to be a quiet retreat for you to unwind after a hard day of work, where you can sip your favorite adult beverage while you just sit back, relax, and watch your trains run though realistic scenes?  Nothing wrong with that, eh?  Wish I could find a ready link to a layout with that purpose -- but I can't.  I do have stuck in my mind several versions of the Tehachapi Loop, a couple of plans in Model Railroader in years past, which were all about watching trains roll by.  

Or is it to be an operating railroad, which hauls freight (and maybe passengers) from point A to point B and back, and which might even include a continuous run option for those adult beverage occasions?  No one answer to this basic question is inherently better than any other, but you really ought to know YOUR answer before you start building something.  Obviously, my own interest is in the last kind of layout, and I also believe that's the kind that's most likely to hold your interest for a long time, but hey, it's your little world you're gonna build, not mine.  Fun has to come in your flavor!

Sandy

http://www.sandysacerr.com

" cannot accept the idea that running all the way around "

 you are forgetting that the layout is 78 inches by 96 inches and in S scale that's a little over 400 by 500 feet so this in not a big island we're talking about. It's roughly the same size as the Harlem site.  It's an industrial conveyor from mine to loading dock so they wouldn't mind running around the cars as it would give them a chance to see what's going on at the other side of the island :> ) .......DaveBranum

Suggestions

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I will try to address all of the points made. To begin I should flesh out what my goals are for making this layout. It is mainly just something to do during the indoor season, which here in AZ is summer. I was an avid modeler in my youth and I like creating things, so this is why I am aiming for a layout with mainly scratchbuilt structures and even locos and rolling stock to some extent. I like the larger size of S compared to HO when building things. I considered going On30 of course, but it seems more toylike to me. This may just be residual loathing of the toy Lionel O scale stuff I remember from back in the day. I consider this layout to be functional art. Also, and this is important, I am not aiming for this to be a masterpiece. This is meant to be a quick build and I figure that when I get it done I will either want to make something more elaborate or I will lose interest in the hobby altogether. Either way I doubt this layout will be around for more than a couple years tops and I am taking steps to make it easy to disassemble. I am considering using the brass that I have in light of this being a "test" layout, I can live with the visual difference and extra cleaning it requires. I have remote switch machines complete with control panel switches for 13 of the 15 turnouts I currently have. I do want it to be somewhat realistic (not whimsical) but obviously I am stretching actual history by making a 42" gauge line in Mexico. I want to have industries that make sense for the locale and be able to simulate service to them. I also want the ability for continuous running, including the ability to turn around. I already have the reversing loop switches for this. I realize that having loops in an area this small is not prototypical, but unless you are building a layout in a warehouse you simply cannot build anything that truly represents actual railroad operations.

I like the look of the layout you sketched Sandy. The industry locations are pretty much what I had drawn in the U layout option, but I like the way you treated the industry sidings a lot better. I don't see the benefit of eliminating the ability to turn around though. I have considered having a lift gate, but somehow it lacks the right look. I can indeed put the workbench in the closet. I may do that depending on which layout option I go with. As far as "operations" go, I will not be standing around with a clipboard simulating operations. I do want the ability to simulate doing actual things though, delivering things from point A to B, and having a loop to simulate going somewhere and returning- that sort of thing. This is just something creative to do rather than watching the idiot box at night, I am not aiming at truly simulating real railroad operations.

For Dave

I'm forgetting nothing; we just have a major philosophical difference about the desirability of run-arounds for operations.  We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one, my friend.

For James

Well, I guess I lied about not having the patience to take my first sketch to a more detailed plan, because I kinda fell in love with your "Isla Caldera" concept and all your limitations, and I went ahead with a second draft of the idea I sketched for you earlier, just to see what might be possible with your chosen theme (short line on a Mexican island), in your available space (11 x 11 spare room), in your chosen scale (Sn42), with your existing supply of 7 NS turnouts and 2 30 degree crossings, and with a $500 budget to get up and running from here.  A lot of givens to consider!  A couple of notes re the "new and improved" plan below:

(1) I've added 7 turnouts to the 7 NS ones you already have.  This is probably a budget issue for you at present, BUT you could choose to build the right hand side of the plan now with your available NS turnouts, and just put in the main line on the left hand side until you decide on whether or not to use the brass turnouts you also have.  (I think that if you ever get that far, you'll eventually decide to spend a few extra bucks on NS turnouts in the gold mine area.  If you decide to add both the quarry track and the engine service track now (put a train shed at its end, add a coal bin, water column, ash pit, sand bin), you will have to buy 2 left hand #4 turnouts now. 

(2) I'd make the quarry track steep enough to justify a max of 2 empties being pushed up or 2 loads being eased down at one time -- maybe a 6-8% grade.  Other grades are more reasonable -- in the 3% area, with the low point being under the RR bridge on the left side.  You have to go uphill from there to the 30 Xing, and uphill from the 30 Xing to the bridge itself in order to get enough separation there.  So the harbor would not be at the low point of the RR; just make the docks high enough above the harbor water level that the track under the bridge on the left is not "under water."

(3) Both the right hand side of the plan and the top part could easily be built on 80" x 30" hollow core doors topped with pink or blue foam sheets, which would make them very easily salvageable or movable (butt the two doors together in the top right hand corner, so the sugar cane area would not be on a door.)  Then you can take those two doors anywhere with minimum fuss and effort.  I've used the hollow core door method on two layouts myself, and am VERY happy with the results (see http://www.sandysacerr.com for an example of that, and for a really, really simple lift out bridge idea.)

(4) The removable bridge can be used both for continuous running and to lengthen the main line run.  With it in place, you have to go twice around to get from harbor to gold mine.  But you can also operate without it in place, in which case you have to make several switchback moves to get to all the industry locations.  

(5) I've included 4 of the 5 industries you mentioned in your list of givens and druthers (gold mine, cannery, sugar cane, and quarry.)  I found the sawmill idea sufficiently implausible to have not included that.  Hey, you only have an 11 x 11 room, and this layout is already starting to feel a bit crowded to me.  I did find room for 2-5 additional industries along the front of the layout on the left hand side, a great "up front" location to show off your planned scratch building projects.  In total this version of Isla Caldera includes 7-10 industries (depending on what you do with the "up front" location), and several of these have room for 2-4 freight cars.  Great operating potential. 

(6) If you prefer, the split creek in the lower left hand corner could instead be a dormant volcanic cone, with the track circling it.  Fits your concept pretty well, huh?  There's also enough room to widen that turn back curve to 21" without disturbing anything else -- a bigger caldera!

(7) The end of the line at the Gold Mine area could be 90% built on your workbench (in 2 pieces), then installed later.  In the meantime, you could just run the turn back curve up to the first turnout there and leave the end of the line for later.

Although a lot more tweaking is possible (maybe widen the right hand shelf or move the tracks back a wee bit to get enough room for boat models tied to the docks, etc.), I'm really pretty pleased with how this one came out, and whether or not YOU build it, I'll keep it in my file of track plans for potential future use.  As you may have guessed already, I have a lot of fun with the track planning aspect of the hobby, particularly when the plan is for a personal spare room narrow gauge empire.  Good luck, and let me know what you finally decide to do with your space,

Sandy