Bill Brillinger

I plan to run 16 to 22 car trains with 2 six axle locomotives. (Kato)

What is the maximum grade you would consider in hidden staging for a train this size?

Bill Brillinger

Modeling the BNML in HO Scale, Admin for the RailPro User Group, and owner of Precision Design Co.

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Jurgen Kleylein

depends

It depends on how long and how straight the grade is.  The train you describe would be able to get up in excess of 3 percent if the track is straight, even more if the grade is steep over a very short distance.  We have a short, steep grade going into Webbwood staging on the Sudbury Division.  I would have to measure it, but it's probably over 3 percent for about 4 feet or so, and we haul 40 cars trains up it without problems.  This is on a 30 inch radius S curve, too.

Jurgen

HO Deutsche Bundesbahn circa 1970

Visit the HO Sudbury Division at http://sudburydivision.ca/

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Bill Brillinger

260"

I have 260 inches to work with.

 

%20grade.JPG 

Bill Brillinger

Modeling the BNML in HO Scale, Admin for the RailPro User Group, and owner of Precision Design Co.

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Jurgen Kleylein

lots of curves

The 44" radius gives you some wiggle room, but it's all on curves and pretty long.  I probably wouldn't go much over 2.5%.  You could try mocking up the grade and see what your units can handle; that would be the final say.

Jurgen

HO Deutsche Bundesbahn circa 1970

Visit the HO Sudbury Division at http://sudburydivision.ca/

The preceding message may not conform to NMRA recommended practices.

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David Husman dave1905

Hidden staging

Your hidden staging has to be the most reliable track you have.  Having your ruling grade hidden can be an issue. 

You are climbing 7 inches in 260 inches so the minimum grade is 2.7%.    Throw in transitions and you are at 2.9%.  Can your trains negotiate a 3% grade?  Can they stop and start?

Dave Husman

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bear creek

More comments

If you start the grade to staging at Morris, then you're crossing the Morris river on a grade. Rivers look a bit weird when they a going transversely across sloped scenery.

The scene will look best if the grade doesn't start until after ducking through the backdrop so the track across the river is more or less level.

Unfortunately this will reduce the distance over which you are climbing and increase the grade.

With the trains you describe 2.5% should be bullet proof (unless couplers fail and you get a nantucket sleight ride down into the staging area.  3% should be workable. But you really should test this. Don't let this grade be at the limit of you loco's pulling power.

Another suggestion: can you move the staging tracks out from the wall so the staging ladder is next to the aisle instead of the wall?  Failing that, build the staging ladder on a single, removable, piece of plywood so if a turnout gets discombobulated you'll be able to get at it for repairs. Failing that, can the staging move left allowing more room for gradient reduction?

Cheers,

Charlie

Superintendent of nearly everything  ayco_hdr.jpg 

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Chris VanderHeide cv_acr

Visible Grade

Looking at the overall plan over here, you could try breaking things up a little and putting some of the grade in between Morris and St Jean to gain another inch or so over there. You've got a fair bit of run before the layout needs to be above the staging; not all of the rise needs to be hidden. (I know you're modeling a relatively flat area, so you'll have to balance this a little.)

 

Edit: oh nevermind, I see you're already doing that.

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Bill Brillinger

Yup. already doing that.

The actual elevation difference from Emerson to Morris is 5.5 meters. Which is pretty much what I have now. I will probably increase this a bit so I can get more space under the entrance to staging.

As Charlie suggested, I can move the staging yard further down the wall. This would give me 350 inches of run before exiting staging and would allow an 8" drop at roughly 2.2%. I think I will do this.

I cannot move the staging closer to the edge of the upper bench though because this head space needed for workdesks that are located under the layout.

I do like the idea of putting the staging yard on a set of hinges so it can drop down to work on it. Great idea!

Bill Brillinger

Modeling the BNML in HO Scale, Admin for the RailPro User Group, and owner of Precision Design Co.

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Bill Brillinger

Revised Staging Plan

0revised.JPG 

Bill Brillinger

Modeling the BNML in HO Scale, Admin for the RailPro User Group, and owner of Precision Design Co.

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Selector

Dave said: "Your hidden

Dave said:

"Your hidden staging has to be the most reliable track you have. Having your ruling grade hidden can be an issue."

Staging, especially if it isn't easily reached or otherwise accessed, can't be any steeper than the steepest grade on your layout over which your most troublesome train must pass without any other help or interference from you.  If your toughest train is a lone Mountain class with 20 hoppers and a caboose comprising the trailing tonnage, then that consist must at the very least be able to manage anything your staging complex can throw at it.  Out in the real world, you can fiddle, add, delete to your heart's content so that consists will pass from place to place successfully.  But in staging, anything that goes in and that must come out looking the same will have to do it all by itself, and the rails on which it runs will have to be foolproof.

Note that the definition of ruling grade is not the steepest grade in a division.  A ruling grade is the steepest one a typical train can manage with typical head end power.  In steam days, when the term was first coined, it was the steepest grade that a typical consist on the timetable could manage with typical power, and usually that was a single locomotive, usually a heavy or light Mikado, since they were ubiquitous and widely used singly as freight engines on timetables. If the hill can only be mastered via atypical head-end power or significantly reduced trailing tonnage, it isn't the ruling grade, it's a steeper-than-ruling grade, and probably becomes a helper district.

If that all seems confusing, maybe the term should be accepted as being an arbitrary assignment, depending on the conditions of the tracks, the tonnages needed to keep revenue positive, the condition of the power used or available, improvements or changes to grades, and so on.  Even the acquisition of new powerful locomotives might relegate a current 'ruling grade' in a division to just another hill, and make the next steepest one, formerly a helper district hill, the new ruling grade.

With that, your staging should be no more difficult than your ruling grade out in the 'real world' of the layout, even if it happens to also be the steepest grade.  It would be silly for most of us to MU locomotives just to get consists back out of staging...although there'd be no other way if your grade up out of that below-layout staging had to be steep out of necessity.  If you would not like to face chores to get your whole trains out of staging as a nice n' tidy package each time, then keep the grades light.  The lighter the grades, the tighter the curves you can get away with....sort of...without incurring stringlining.

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