The Plans....

(Click on the images to open a larger view in a new tab)

Main Level

Staging

Nice Plan

Looks good. Keeps the office space more open.

What program are you using to draw this up?

Very Nice

Bill,

I have to say this is a pretty nice plan you have there.  It's very clean and with it's simplicity wouldn't be that hard to build.  The one area I suggest taking a hard look at is the hidden staging.  I think you may have some access problems there due to the lack of separation between decks.    If you do a mock up of the decks I believe you'll find you have difficulty reaching any cars that aren't on the first track.  Moving the yard closer to the front of the shelf would help but probably not enough to solve the problem.  One solution might be to tweak the rate you drop between the ADM facility and Morris to see if you can smoothly get Morris to a lower elevation.  My guess is getting an extra four or five inches of clearance between staging and the above deck would make a big difference.

Lance

Visit Miami's Downtown Spur at http://www.lancemindheim.com

Staging

Greetings Lance,

I am a big fan of your work and I appreciate praise and your comments on the staging aspect of this plan.

I agree, reaching cars on tracks other than the first will be a problem. I plan not to need to reach them.

The staging yard will be loaded and worked from the tail on the "Emerson" end. Since there is only one track here, it will have easy, unobstructed access from a sitting position below the benchwork and will not be hidden behind the facia. Trains will be assembled on this track and then run into the yard, ready to appear.

The deck height is somewhat restricted because of another work surface that exists below this deck. The staging deck will be only as wide as is needed for it's tracks, so there will be no need to reach over it.

The tail will be a bit lower than the yard itself and the benchwork will be open between the joists above the track giving several more inches of clearance for hand movement.

Originally the plan was to have this staging area be double ended, but changes in my building design have kept me from having the planned loop down from Noyes. I had a few alternatives but I was not very happy with them.

What Software?

Ok, No laughing. I use CorelDraw X3 for all of my design work.

I even used it to design the house... Right down to every stud location. Wiring diagrams. Everything.

The layout is drawn at full size and will soon include layers showing all the benchwork members. Having full dimensions makes for easy cutting of the lumber later. I have made accurate templates for my turnouts and can easily calculate curve radius, tangent lines, center points, distances, etc.

I also use it in my daytime biz as some of you may know.

Looks like a lot some tight spaces

I like the simplicity of the plan, but there seems to be some really narrow aisles in the Morris, St Jean and Duckunder areas.

Aisle Width

You're right Greg, those are some tight spaces.

In my original plan they were still about 30" wide, but because of my 24" room width reduction, the pinch in the aisle between St.Jean and Morris and between the duckunder and the Letellier are less than 24".

By adjusting the angle of the peninsula that the grain elevator is on, I have gotten the aisle between the Elevator and St. Jean up to 26.5" which I think is fine for this spot.

I was also able to increase the width of the aisle by the duckunder from 22.5" to 24.5.

Thanks for making me take a second look at this.

Dislikes the duckunder...

Although it provides a longer run by having the mainline traverse the room as it does, having the duckunder I think over time is going to be a bigger negative than positive.  I operated regularly on a layout that had a duckunder and even at the time I was very young (early 20s) I found it very annoying and it was a major detractor.  The older members of the operating group hated it even more.  In time, the group, including the owner, devised a revision to the layout design, and we literally ripped up 1/3 of the layout to reconfigure the mainline to eliminate the duckunder. 

Just something I would STRONGLY advise you reconsider.  I do know there are "solutions" such as rolling chairs, etc to mitigate the duckunder, we tried them all, and it still was a pain. 

Other than that, I like the plan very much!

Dislikes the alternatives to the duckunder more...

Ken,

I appreciate your comments regarding the duckunder.

I just can't see a way to get rid of it without breaking a multitude of my other criteria.

- Wide sweeping curves
- long straight runs between towns

It's a compromise I had to make.

Taking your comments into consideration, I made a mockup of the duckunder and have decided to increase it's size.

The duckunder will now be 42" wide and 47" tall. (up from 36" wide)

"Dislikes the alternatives to the duckunder"

 If you could fit a helix by the end of the stairs you could reverse the direction of the route along the right wall, moving morris over to the side of the stairs then helix down to staging under the right wall  scene? This would shorten the route by about 15 feet but would open up the isles and eliminate the duckunder? .......DaveBranum

Possible Duckunder Fix

Since your duckunder is very narrow, but a rotating seat on each side of the duckunder then you can sit and rotate and easily come out on the other side with killing your head and back.  It works well for the "experienced" modelers and the youth enjoy and the kids will love it.

Did I mention "Lone Wolf" ... ?

Since this will be a lone wolf operation, with the occasional visiting onlooker and possibly my kids or wife as guest operators, I'm not too concerned about the duckunder. We're a slender, limber bunch and scooting thru a nearly 4'x4' opening is not going to be a problem.

Someday, if needed, I'll install Tom's chair! (it's a great solution)

I can't see me giving up my long runs.

Great Call

Bill,

I think you have resolved the perceived problem with a lot of good forward planning.  If you have grandkids, they will love the chairs as they are great play things.  We did this long ago and far away on a military club layout in Okinawa

Rotating Chair??? HOW ABOUT A JET PACK ?

Seriously, your getting way too complicated for a simple issue. A basic drop down or swing gate is all that is needed. How much does a couple of hinges cost?. Keep it simple. But I would provide a basic method of easy access rather than the restriction or necessity of "only the thin, agile and acrobatic may enter" method.

Otherwise, it's a good looking plan.

Just my 2 cents.

Randy

Jet pack? - I was thinking transporter.

In reality, it's not really restricted. My father in law is about 300lbs and as an electrician, he goes through much tighter spaces on a regular basis. If you're healthy enough to get up the stairs, you can get by the duckunder.

A lift out does however make a lot of sense.

Bill, I think a simple drop

Bill,

I think a simple drop down section (rather than a lift out) with a hinge on one side would be ideal. Then even Grandma can get in easily.

I know a guy that has a small spot on the top of his head where hair won't grow anymore. He had a duck under that he claimed was easy for him to traverse (with his full head of hair).  It became an 'el ca bong' episode in one sudden act of rail road rage.

It seems that no matter how careful you are,  stuff happens.

Randy

Yes, if the duckunder must stay ...

Yes, if you insist on keeping the "duckunder" then by all means put in a lift out, swing bridge, or drop down gate. You will greatly appreciate it later.

As to your comment that there's no other way - there are always ways if you're willing to think outside the box - mushroom, multi-deck, helix, rotate the plan 180, etc.

No Other Way?

I didn't think I said there was "no other way," there are plenty of options - just not that appeal to me, and believe me, I have tried them.

This plan has been well over a year in the making and it's been arranged and re-arranged a bunch of times. Tweak after tweak, I have come back to this basic arrangement. I love the flow of it.

As for double decking, below the 4ft mark is spoken for so I just can't do it.

"or drop down gate. You will greatly appreciate it later."

definitely, and make it as wide as possible since about 95% of the hours spent in a layout room are building and maintaining things so you want easy access for materials and tools and a tired worker.....DaveBranum

Duckunder

Duckunders are a nice simple solution.  Until you screw up your back.  Or your knees.  Or hips.  You can get T-Boned at an intersection anytime.  And then not be able to play with your trains?  Dude.  Plan ahead.

Michael

Any way to eliminate switch backs

I noticed switch backs to the lumber yard in Morris and at Patterson grain. Is the Seed Service Track serviced by the track mobile? Is it possible to eliminate the switchback to the lumber yard side of Morris?

Switchbacks

I included the switchbacks intentionally.

The Patterson Inland Port yard is technically serviced from both ends. The end modeled is BNML/CN, the other end is CP. For the CN crew, it's a switching puzzle. I can eliminate it later by connecting the team track to it, or as you suggest, serviced it with the track mobile.

The other switchback at the lumber yard actually serves a few industries but will not be a problem to switch because of the long lead at the smaller Paterson elevator.

Reactions to Plan

My overall reaction is WOW!  You've resisted the temptation to go overboard on track, so you'll have lots of room for nice scenery, with plenty of separation between towns to give the sense that your trains are actually going somewhere, and that big radius curve between St. Jean and Morris is gonna be a favorite spot for train watching.  Also I did some switching in my head, and there's a nice mix of trailing and facing point turnouts to make operating a lot of fun.  

A couple of tweak thoughts: 

(1) Like most everyone else here, I hate the idea of a duckunder.  Going under once during an operating session may not be a huge deal if you're young and agile, but think about building the layout.  Long before you get to operations you're going to be going back and forth dozens of times each work session -- to fetch a forgotten tool, to grab more screws, to take a structure back and forth from the workbench as you detail it, go get a cup of coffee, etc., etc.  Any simple mechanism (a lift-out section, a hinge up, a hinge-down) would make things a lot easier for you.  For example, I've got a really simple removable bridge (a 60" 1x6 with a u-shaped shelf bracket track over each edge to prevent sag and a single track on it, plus a stereo plug to power the track on top) that just lifts up and stands on end except when I'm running trains, and it works fine.  From reading all the comments and your reactions, it seems to me that you're resisting something pretty easy to do that a whole lot of us think is pretty important.  

(2)  Is there really no run-around in St. Jean?  I don't know the prototype, so maybe there's a reason you haven't included one, but I think operations would be more fun if you just tied the siding that parallels the main back into the main at its other end.

(3) I'm with Lance in urging you to create as much vertical separation as possible between staging and the underside of the main deck.  On our club layout (www.crmha.org), we have a helix down to a double ended 8 track staging  yard, and I added an extra turn to the track plan to get the staging yard a full 8" below the main level.  Now I wish I'd added yet another loop!  The problem is that Mr. Murphy will take up residence in one of those middle tracks, and 8" is enough to get a 1:1 hand in there, but not enough to do much with it when you do; plus you can't really get your eyes high enough over the yard to get a good view of a middle track.  Are you willing to drop the elevation a bit between St. Jean and Morris to increase your separation?  Sooner or later, you'll be glad you did, and it sure looks to me that you have plenty of room to do so.  

(4) My layout is also switching oriented, and I don't really need a continuous run to be happy.  But when your Aunt Tilly, who doesn't know the BNML from beans and probably could care even less, comes to visit and you want to show off all your good work, you're going to want to just let a couple or three trains run loops while you talk to her and whoever came over with her.  I'll also confess that I enjoy letting a train run slow loops every now and then while I stand back with my adult beverage and just watch.  My layout room is much smaller than yours, so you don't "need" the continuous run option for visitors as much as I do, but it sure looks to me that you have a pretty easy way to add it -- just extend the staging lead around the corner, through the little room with the single branch line staging track in it (btw, you'll improve your operating potential if you add a turnout and make that 2 staging tracks), and tie it in at the lower left hand end of the line.  If it really is as easy as that, you'll be glad you added a continuous run loop, even one where so much of the track will be hidden. 

Good Luck, have fun,

Sandy

http://www.sandysacerr.com

Little Rooms

Please have a look at my "layout room" post: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/13567

The little rooms are not actually accessible, they are crawl spaces in the attic eaves.

And then look at this post: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/13578

You will see, in my original plan, it was continuous running, but because of changes in my building design I needed to change the area where it looped down at Noyes.

In order to have Noyes not intrude on my wifes library, I can't do the down loop and I have to give up continuous running. So, Noyes became Staging in Plain Sight.