bnsf6951

hello to all
i am currently in the process of buying a home. while i am waiting for all the papers to be signed, inspection & appraisal to be done, i have occupied myself by drawing up a new track plan for my BNSF Peavine sub. this layout will occupy 2 rooms 1 bedroom & the den that is adjacent to the bedroom.the bedroom measures 11ft.x 11ft & the dens common wall ( with the bedroom) measures 11ft x 9.5 ft w & the final measurement is the left wall of the den @ 13 ft. i intend to go through the wall that separates the 2 rooms giving me a run of approximately 19 ft.on the lower level & the same with the upper level.
i am attaching the drawings of my new track plan to get some comments & suggestions. i am using ME code 55 flex track & a combo of Atlas & ME turnouts. the scale of the drawing is 1 inch = 1ft. & is not 100% accurate. i will be using a helix kit that i will be purchasing from an ebay vender. the helix is built for double main line with an out side radius of 16.5" & inside radius of 15" @ a 2% grade. spacing between levels = 2". measurement of the kit = 36" by 15".
so here are the pics...let me know what you all think

thanks ...vinny
aka..bnsf6951

001(13).JPG      002(5).JPG 

http://www.bnsf6951.blogspot.com

   

http://www.bnsf6951.blogspot.com

 

 

 

Reply 0
Bill Brillinger

Scale?

I'm guessing this is N scale?

Bill Brillinger

Modeling the BNML in HO Scale, Admin for the RailPro User Group, and owner of Precision Design Co.

Reply 0
bnsf6951

oops!!!!

Sorry guys I forgot to mention in my post this is an N scale layout Vinny
Reply 0
postman

Great!

Great!. What are you doing with your old layout?

Reply 0
bnsf6951

OLD LAYOUT !!!

hello Mr Postman

i will be tearing down my old layout, but i am going to salvage as much as i can.. the new layout will be of the same sub but, with only 2 level instead of the multi-layer that i have now

vinny..aka..bnsf6951

http://www.bnsf6951.blogspot.com

Reply 0
Cadmaster

Scale Plan

Like what you are doing here with your plan, i am becoming a big fan of the industrial switching layouts. One suggestion that I would make is use a software program or track planning templates to draw your plan. I think that you will find your turnouts are going to take up a lot more space that what you are indicating here in your sketch. 

Neil.

Diamond River Valley Railway Company

http://www.dixierail.com

Reply 0
bnsf6951

TRACK PLAN

good morning Neil

   i appreciate your input. at this point my drawing is for reference. i drew it to relieve some of the stress i am experiencing while waiting for all the stuff to be done on my home purchase ( home inspection, appraisal, underwriting & signing all the paper work) at this point, everything hinges on the appraisal which was done yesterday. i will redo the drawing with a bit more accuracy when i get into the house. 

  again thanks for your input...have a great  day

vinny...aka...bnsf6951

http://www.bnsf6951.blogspot.com

Reply 0
Cadmaster

I remember

I remember that frustration, fortunately I am way past that. Good luck with the build, Iook forward to follow up posts. 

I took a look through Bing at the Peavine. There are some fun industries along that line. What was happening in Phoenix on the Peavine during the late 60's?

Neil.

Diamond River Valley Railway Company

http://www.dixierail.com

Reply 0
seustis13

Track Plan Thoughts

3 Caveats: (1) I'm in On30, not N, so I have a had time visualizing some how some of the elements of track planning work in your scale (aisle width vs. scene depth, true vs. visual length of passing sidings, # of tracks that comfortably fit in a given width, etc.), (2) I know nothing about the Peavine (its prototype operating scheme, major industries, or the ratios among the various commodities it handles), and (3) I don't really know your givens and druthers.  Do you want an as-close-as-possible-to-the-real-thing track layout?  Do you want to have areas without track to model the surrounding scenery?  Where do you stand on the scale running from absolute faithfulness to the prototype on one end, to just capturing the general feel and ambiance of the prototype an the other end?  In sum, my lens may be distorted relative to yours, but hey, free advice is often what you pay for it, so here goes:

What I Like: 

(1) Strong focus on Operations -- if it isn't fun to switch, you'll probably lose interest after a while, and your sketch includes a variety of facing and trailing point turnouts that will require some planning to serve.  If you build it, I would come and play trains with you because it looks like FUN.  Great Start!

(2) You've started with a sketch instead of a real detailed plan.  I know there are issues like how much track length will it actually require for a turnout, or whether you really get X tracks in a yard of Y length on a table of z width -- do you need compound vs. simple ladders in each yard, and how many tracks do you really need in each location, etc. etc), but you're really on the right track (pun intended) to focus first just on the overall routing of the main line and the general location of major yards and industries, instead of jumping right into detailed planning that you'll have to start over on anyway.  I know several modelers who started building with just a sketch and never produced a detailed plan, letting themselves visualize each scene in the space available and laying out actual pieces of track on their table top however it worked to get what they wanted, and that approach worked fine for them.

What I'm not Convinced About:

(1) From an operating point of view, you've got a lot of double track main on the lower level, with crossovers to serve as run-arounds for switching moves, and some of those run-arounds aren't near the industries they'll serve. The problem is then that if you have more than one operator, they may be on top of each other - trying to use the same crossover while switching industries in different directions.  Or are you always going to operate as a lone wolf?  Is the number and location of crossovers important to you because it's where the prototype had crossovers, or are you willing to add others or to relocate them such that two or three operators can work simultaneously in adjacent areas? 

(2) Seems like a lot of yard trackage for a layout this size.  I'm sure the prototype had multiple yards, though with longer distances between them.  Do you have them all because the prototype did and you're trying to be faithful (OK), because you've collected a ton of rolling stock and want to display it all (OK), because you really love yards (OK), or just because they were there on the prototype (in which case, I really don't think you need al that yard trackage, or that many yards, in order to have a fun operating schematic.)  Just personally, I'd rather have less track to maintain and room for another industry or two.

What I don't like:

(1) The upper level in the bedroom on the right had side is not reachable from the aisle, so that's where Mr. Murphy and his lovely bride will take up residence -- probably frequently!  The curve in the siding to the big industry in the middle of the wall is the main problem; it takes up a lot of width to get it perpendicular to the  main.  Are you willing to compromise on the prototype track layout by rotating that industry 90 degrees and having its siding parallel to the main?  That would enable you to have a much narrower shelf there, which would also reduce the amount of trackless scenery needed in the corners of that side of the plan.  If you just gotta have that scene that wide, I'd recommend you try to place it on an open peninsula in the center of the room, accessible from both sides and with no upper level above it.  Let the upper level in the bedroom bypass the peninsula and hug the wall, with an aisle between it and the lower level peninsula. 

(2) You've got a nearly unique  and very difficult situation with your 2 room location.  Your solution seems to be to just run tracks through the wall and pretend it isn't there, which doesn't work at all for me.  You still have to get a 1:1 scale person from one room to the other, and on both the upper level and lower level in your sketch, you may need to run back and forth a couple of times to perform a particular switching move -- a total pain-in-the-ass that will utterly destroy the experience of being there in the miniature world you're creating.  I really think you either need to tear out the dividing wall (bad for the resale value of  your home), or start over on a new main line routing that has you staying entirely in one room, operating on both the lower and upper levels there, then passing just once through the wall on either the upper or lower level, and then lets you stay in the other room until you reach the end of the line.  This would mean either (a) a helix in each room to access both the upper and lower levels, or (b) having only an upper level in one room with workbench and storage areas underneath, or (c) a double track helix somewhere along the common wall between the rooms, with three wall holes (one to get from den to bedroom after running all the trackage in whichever room has the helix, and two more to access the top and bottom of the second helix track from the other room.)  Solution A would give you most straightforward main line routing; each room could operate in simple linear fashion, from one end of the line around the walls to a helix, up or down the helix and  around the walls to the hole to the other room, then around the walls there to the second helix, then up or down to a final around-the-walls route to the other end of the line.  Solution A Bonus: you could totally finish one room, from one end of the line to a midpoint, before even starting in the other.  Your sketch has both ends of the line in the same room, requiring you to either build the middle of the line first (not good for operations), or to lay track in both rooms before you can operate anything realistically.  

(3) Where's the connection to the rest of the world?  No hidden staging, no fiddle yard, no cassettes?  What happens to loaded cars when they reach the interchange?

(4) Personally, I like to just watch 'em run sometimes, and so even in a switching-type layout, I'd want to have a continuous run built into the plan somewhere - either via a removable bridge, or a loads-in/empties-out pair of industries that just happen to create a continuous loop if/when there are no cars parked at either one,or a turnout to a track running through a backdrop or behind something else that ties in way over there and is ignored when you operate, etc., etc.  Even if you're saying to yourself that you don't need a continuous run, you will almost certainly have visitors who you'll want to show all your fine work to, and having a CR loop somewhere in the plan will be important when that happens. (Aunt Tilly doesn't give a hoot about the prototype, she just wants to see those cute little trains run around for a while.) 

Personally, I have a lot of fun trying to simultaneously visualize scenes and imagine operations, both in a given space with a given theme.  So keep on doodling, Vinny; I think you're actually at a pretty fun place in the process.    

Sandy

http://www.sandysacerr.com 

Reply 0
bnsf6951

WOW

hello sandy

  you have brought up very good & valid points. i guess i will start with the prototype. the Peavine is BNSF's sub that runs from Phoenix Az to Ash Fork Az. it is a point to point road. most of the industries are located in the Phoenix / Glendale area of Az. all of these industries are located on the first level. the main road (Grand Ave.) runs parallel to the track for about 60 miles. when the train reaches Ash Fork there would be crew change & then onward to William Az. where it is transferred to BNSF's east-west transcontinental line.

  being on a fixed income i can only purchase what i was approved for. believe me, i would like to get this layout all in one room. that's what i am dealing with now. my current layout is in a 12' x 13' bedroom ( my master bedroom). it looks like a giant helix with very few flat spots for industries so had to come up with ways to keep my set-outs at the industry ( no run-a-ways). another problem this gave me was only 8" between levels. the new plan will have a helix that will raise the track to about 15" over the lower level. as far as the wall in question, i have given it some thought and because it's not a load bearing wall, i have the option of at least making a pass through.( like a double wide door)

  i am trying to stay as prototypical as i possibly can. the large structure you are referring to is called "Smith Pipe & Steel"  as of present day, they don't receive rail service. when they did, rail traffic went into the structure for loading & unloading. just a note: all my structure are scratch built by me & are pretty close to the prototypes. i am especially proud  of the smith pipe & steel structure it took me 5 weeks to build it. if you get the time please check out my you tube page  http://www.youtube.com/user/bnsf6951 there you will see my current layout & my scratch builds

  the one section you refer to that does not have a siding is the way it is on the prototype. it does however, have a run-a-round within the section to allow access to all the industries.i do agree that the aisle is tight at 24" but, i can always trim some property away from the lower level next to the wall (the IM yard) 

  by the way....if you ever come to Phoenix you are welcome to come & play. unless you live here then you can come over whenever.

  if i had the room i would model this sub in it's entirety. i say that because the line actually goes south from Phoenix to service industries there & finally ends up at the UP yard which is in south Phoenix.

  i have also been contemplating doing a reverse loop at both ends so i can have a continuous run ( for aunt tilly)while doing switching

  the main yard (Mobest) is in Phoenix & i would love to model all 15 track ( approx. a mile long) + the engine facility + the turntable ( which is not in use anymore, but still there) selective compression & just to mention, the large structure we talked about earlier, is directly across from the yard. ( my video on you tube called "rail fanning the Peavine" you will see the structure)

  this is my thoughts on running my layout: first there will be 2 trains the phoenix local & the glendale local. ( i have about 16 industries, they will be divided in half, one train to service one half etc. the trains will leave Mobest & service the designated industries doing set outs & pick ups. they will return to mobest. from there a train will be made up to do a straight run to Ash Fork. there would be a power change at Ash Fork . new power would pick up a string of cars & head back down to Phoenix. i guess i should mention this trip is about 190 miles one way. the train would then be put into a yard track, the power breaks off & heads in for fuel & sand. then the whole thing would start over. 

  i have done a couple of  solo op session my vids called " switching glendale " took about 15-20 min. or " switching cal gas" took about 7-10 min. so I'm  thinking that for each loco to perform it's task for the day, would take about 1-1.5 hours in real time.....still want to come over & play?????

  i need to get ready for my doctors appointment. it's been great chatting with you..keep your comments coming

have a great rest of the day

vinny

 

 

 

Reply 0
seustis13

Playing trains

Since I live in South Carolina, the drive is a bit far for an afternoon or evening of playing trains.  Given the number of industries you have, and the number of freight cars you have the capacity for, I'll guess that a full simulated operating day would take over 3 hours for a pair of operators.  My On30 layout has a dozen industries, less than half the turnouts you have, just over 20 revenue cars, and a leisurely operating day takes me and a friend about 2 hours (but then we be enjoyin' an adult beverage or two while we play.)

I visited your blog, and like me, you seem to find scratch buillding structures the most fun part of the hobby.  NIce work!  You like the modern era and working in styrene, while I prefer 1930's very narrow gauge, smaller structures (almost a given in my available space in On30), and working in wood. But overall, we seem to have a similar bent -- operations oriented switching with a secondary focus on structures and scenery.

What do you think about my idea of having half the line completely in one room, and only walking once into the other room to run the other half of the line.  Or are you already thinking about using a sledgehammer on that wall?

Sandy

http://www.sandysacerr.com 

Reply 0
bnsf6951

LAYOUT

good morning sandy

  it  seems i have quit a few friends that live in the SE part of our country. i have been to only one SE state in my entire life & that was Florida. one of these days i want to visit & maybe even find me a southern bell...lol

  OK now on to the important stuff. at this point i am waiting to hear about  2 things. the appraisal & for the seller to clean the pool so my home inspector guy can give it a once over. my loan officer & realtor tell me there shouldn't be a problem with the appraisal. on the other hand, the seller is procrastinating..this could be a deal breaker.then i will have to start all over again. i guess if the Good Lord wants me to have it, He will make it work.

  i have given your idea of running in 2 different rooms but the size of each room by itself would be too small. here are the room sizes. bedroom on the right = 9.5' plus an additional 20" for the closet x 11' ( need 30" for the entrance) so bedroom # 1 = 10' x 11'. the room to the left (den) = 11' x 9' x 13' ( 11' = short wall on the right..9'= the wall along the back & 13'= the wall on the left.) even in "N" scale these are quit small..hence using the 2 rooms together. i need to clarify one thing, if you look closely at the sketch, you will see a turnout that is sitting right in the planned opening, that won't be there. technically i can switch  7 industries + the tank farm at Mobest yard in one op session in one room & switch the remaining industries in the other room in a second op session. my second idea is for one person to switch one room while another persons switches the second room. i would still have my 100'+ run ( linear feet including the helix). most of the switching is done with 4 axle units so after the cars are brought back to either yard the power changes to 6 axle units to run the point to point ( phoenix to ash fork or visa-versa )

  i thought about using the 2 car garage but 2 things are stopping me. # 1  temps here in Az get to 115 deg. outside & i would guess about 125 deg in the garage & believe it or not, it does get around 40 deg. in the winter. i could insulate & add heat & ac but that cost money (something i don't have) #2 my daughter has a brand new car & i wouldn't want her to park it out side.even i could convince my daughter to park outside, the HOA prohibits outside overnight parking

  i don't think i mentioned this but, when the train passes the last industry on the upper left, (cal gas) the scenery begins. also at that point the scenery changes from desert to pine trees. so the entire back wall upper level will be  the Hassyampa River ( at the left, mountains, a deep canyon (at the right) & a highway over pass ( AZ SR 89)

  this is one of the things i have been thinking of. i would cut a hole in the wall wide enough to fit a "French door" then if i ever decide to sell the house i can do 1 of 2 things, i can install the French doors & make the room a second master ( there is a bathroom adjacent to the den) or just close the wall back up.

   i agree that, to walk around a wall to play will be an inconvenience but, my current layout is in my master bedroom, so for the past 15 months i have been sleeping on the couch.

  as far as my structures go, they are of what's here now. concrete tip ups & corrugated steel. i have visited some of these places & had tours in a couple ( i guess that's an advantage of modeling your home town RR) one of the tours i had was at "Mariani Dist" when i went, i brought the model i made of their business, they where in shock. neither of them knew that much about the hobby. that tour was very informative & i saw some things that i was missing on my model that have been added since the tour.( again you can view the video on my you tube page) and yes, i love to scratch build & i do use styrene. my first major build was the " Smith Pipe & Steel" after that one, the rest where a piece of cake

  i am hoping to hear back from the appraisal either today or tomorrow..keeping my fingers crossed

that's it for now...hope i didn't bore you

have a great day

vinny

 " model railroading is fun "                         

 

 

Reply 0
seustis13

Ooh - what a great idea!

I really like your idea about having two operators, one in each room, sending trains to each other.  That sounds like great fun, and lends itself to a feature of your upper level sketch -- a passing siding that passes through the wall, with one turnout in each room, but no industries to switch at that location.  You finish your work in one room, send the nose of your train through the wall, stop it and wait for the nose of my train to appear on the parallel track.  Then we swap trains and continue.  Sheer genius! 

I wouldn't bother with the french door idea -- who needs it?  When operating alone you just park your train on the through-wall siding, and walk into the next room to continue (or to run the train that originates there, and push that through the wall when done.)  For either one operator or two, I still think the key to this kind of plan working well is to have only one hole in the wall -- on either the upper or lower level, but not both.  Each room would be in effect a complete layout (requiring its own helix to get from one level to the other), each room representing about half the full length of the Peavine.  When you ask someone over to play trains for the first time, you'd definitely want to keep the door closed to room #2,  stand beside him in room #1 while he switches that one, then casually walk down the hall to the door to room #2, open it, turn and say something like "Oh by the way, you're only half done!"  Now just how cool would that be?!!

Also, my earlier comment about laying all the track and installing some scenery in one room before even starting in the other room still applies.  If you want to, you can build half your layout in half the total time, and have it appear to non-modeling visitors to be an entire finished roomful of trains, before you even tackle the second room.  Good luck with the seller and the appraiser!

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