Welcome to the dark side Den

as for your questions:

Yes, ON30 track has wider tie spacing and the ties are longer, but any HO track is perfectly ridable by On30 stock.

I tried a mix of European HO track, Atlas, Peco Streamline and Shinohara, all my (mostly Bachmann) stock showed no problem as did the MMI and BLI loco's.

Ties pose less problems after ballasting, but that's a personal thing, as does rail height. Some use code 70 to hand lay track and make turnouts, I use code 100. (and BIG locomotives

I opted for the Peco "O-16.5" range of flextrack and turnouts, it does have narrow gauge ties spacing but shorter (European) ties.

Aaahh the 'real estate plan' ! Very good point and I bumped my nose on that one !

Nope, On30 is definitely not HO, it is much much much larger, try mocking up a few buildings etc in 1:48 and you soon find out what I mean. The clearance is about 3"x 4" check the web (NMRA) for drawings / templates of the diagram.

As for consists: you could run a small 0-4-0 with a couple of skips, a 4-4-0 with a coach or 2 or a small mixed train, a 2-8-0 with, say, 6 boxcars or a 2-8-2 or 4-6-0 with a longer train.

Change over to a Garratt or Mallet and the train gets longer

It's just what kind of system you want to model, my F&B RR goes to the maximum what the gauge will allow, the idea beeing that a steep gradient and small radii set the 30" gauge and it's profile, but traffic is good enough for a standard gauge operation. Hence the code 100 rail and BIG loco's !

A good place to read about On30 is http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=69

just my 2 cents

cheers, Leo

looking for all kinds of advice

 From N scale to O scale is a very big jump in size, in between the two  is HO and Sn3 scales which might be better if you don't have lots of room. HO is same gauge but smaller scale so scenery can be less compromised. HO can support modern era or older era trains while On30 is pretty much older fantasy type stuff. Sn3 is about the same gauge as HO but with a little larger scale although still significantly smaller than On30 when it comes to fitting in scenery.

To answer your track question, yes the specialized On30  track has more realistic looking tie size and spacing but it costs more so the advantage of building the stuff to run on HO gauge track goes away. If you don't have a large space and won't need a lot of track and switches it might look neat to use wooden ties and hand lay all the rail. An old time operation wouldn't need tie plates so the cost and work would not be too great especially if you could find a KD spiker to do the job..DaveBranum

Here's a start

Den,

I was contemplating going into On30. Have several pieces of equipment but decided I couldn't do both HO and O scale and get anything done. I figure when I get to the point of not being able to read the numbers on the HO scale cars I'll convert to O scale.

Here's a book you might be interested in.

http://www.on30annual.com/

I'll join in the conversation as it goes. I really like to see MRH expand beyond the standard gauge prototype mentality. On30 allows you the freedom of "creating" your own critters. Now there's a term you will here much on any narrow gauge disscusion "critters". What are critters? Here's one example.

A flat car some odds and ends and you have "critter". I got more from where they came from.

Bernd

Yes please !

keep 'm coming Bernd

cheers, Leo

Thanks guys!

Thanks for responding guys.

Okay, what I have for space is a spare bedroom.  One wall 10 feet long (to the left) and 7 feet (to the right) which is the swing space for the hall door.  If I stop at 7 feet the door can open fully.  Those two walls have no windows.  I could "gate" the door to get onto another wall @ 8 feet long.  That is the wall the door is hinged to.  It has no window as well but has a walk-in closet at the far end.  The fourth wall of the room has the walk-in closet door and a full length window.  At the moment I am focusing on the two walls.  Let me explain something about this door.  Where the door is located that corner, the corner has been cut off at a 45 degree angle.  So, the door sits across there at a 45 degree angle.  The hallway makes a zig-zag.

For a plan I am thinking switch back style climbing up out of a valley with a small river port in the lowest part.  Maybe a mine or lumber cutting at the highest point.  There are no loop backs and no crossovers in my mind for this one. There is one tunnel that would lead to a cassette for offline storage/staging.  The tunnel could lead to the "gate" that would be for future expansion to the other wall.

I will try to post a possible track plan later tonight.

I have been looking at the PECO brand of track, switches and I see that they have an On30 turntable as well.  I'm not sure I would need the turntable as I know it will eat space.

Leo, Dave and Bernd, I have heard the "critter" and "dark side" term for some time now.  I did get a copy of the latest On30 Annual about a week ago.  I just ordered the annual with Vern's layout on the cover.

I am not going to model in two scales like Bernd tried to do.  I hate to give up my N scale collection, but....  I have a massive collection which I will have to sell off if I make this change.  I have been collecting since 1975 and was heavily involved in N-Trak for a while too.  I have considered staying in N scale and building the Gordon Odegard's Ottuma layout in the same space with a few mods.  I do love seeing strings of colorful wooden billboard reefers running down the track!

However, my current N scale layout is just not making me happy.  Another problem is that I am losing more rail joiners in N scale than I am using.  If I stay in N scale I may have to start wearing a thimble too.  Some of those rail joiners are ending up in the end of my finger.  Ouch!

The biggest decision to change is my eyes.  I probably spend too much time in front of computers which is my occupation.  I am down to using a magnifying glass to make out build dates and other details.  It really is getting harder to see to solder the joiners and small wires.

Another issue is, what I thought would be a great layout, ate all the floor space of the current room.  It would be a great layout if I had a bigger room for it.  That isn't happening.  It was designed as a walk-around layout.  Now I am thinking a shelf design was the way to go.  I would like to have some of that floor space back.  taking that layout out is not a problem as I built it for a move.  It comes apart in two sections and has folding table legs.

Then another change recently popped up.  Due to Sequestration and gov't agencies looking to cut expenses it was pointed out that I may lose my office space and parking.  I may have to telecommute.  Which is great as far as I am concerned.  However, in talking to my lovely wife she pointed out one thing.  My office has to fit in the same room as my hobby.  As it stands now that is not going to happen.  The current layout will not allow it.  Oh, and I need to move to the room next door too. The room described above. My wife is very supportive of my hobby and likes the trains.  However, she said it is time to remodel that room.

So, I am at the crossroads to make a change.  The Dark Side has been pulling at me.  I want to make this change so I can better enjoy the hobby.  So, for those of you already in On30 it would be helpful to me to be advised by you.  I would like to read about your mistakes.  Leo, you mentioned bumping your nose on the real estate plan issue.  Can you tell us more?

I am sure there are others who are thinking along the same lines.

Den

On30 is fun!

Critter's

Ok Leo, I'm assuming you want a few more critter pictures? Well here's a few more. Standard gauge, but works just as well in On30.

This is a standard gauge critter. Here's some history behind it. I believe it's a rebuild of the first one I posted.

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,2329828

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_San_Luis_Valley_Railroad

Got an O scale truck you want to put on the rails?

This one looks like a home built.

Two Bachman Davenport's spliced back to back.

Here's one I started to scratch build. I've got the frame documented on my web site. http://www.kingstonemodelworks.com/Critter1.html I have the body semi built out of brass. I'll have to take a pic and post it later.

This was written up in Narrow Gauge and Short line Gazette. It's a 3ft. gauge contractors locomotive. Looks like the one above, but isn't. The one above is a standard gauge engine.

Defiantly a home built with a CAT diesel engine.

Sorry Den. I've sort of high jacked your thread.

I have many more of these small industrial or short line engine pictures. They are fun to look at and think "what am I going to use to make that". That's part of the fun of On30 or any other narrow gauge interest.

In case you already don't know Banta Models also a good source of info on On30. http://www.bantamodelworks.com/

Now the question remains, "Were do I get On30 people from?" Anybody know?

Bernd

Two more pics

Here's the shell of that brass scratch built critter in the previous post.

Here's another truck version on rails.

Bernd

I really find the whole

I really find the whole On30 idea really fascinating, but the lack of anything diesel beyond critters is a bit of a downer.

...

Sn3 does not have the product support now available in On30, while HO would perhaps be the same problem  as N in a couple years...or you'd be frustrated trying to model standard gauge ideas on an N scale level but only have an HO sized space to do it.

On30 is a good cross, I dare say...

@ Travis, I guess it depends on the road.

How big a diesel you talking about? You got to remember that many of these roads used light rail, sharp curves and tight clearances. I did a search for "large narrow gauge diesels U.S." and found several photos of diesels much bigger than critters.

Den

the lack of anything diesel beyond critters is a bit of a downer

 If you like small diesels the Southern Pacific narrow gauge diesel #1 is available in Sn3 and On3 gauges so you could model a class one railroad interchange and a narrow gauge hold over from the past and be completely  realistic doing it. It's also available in HOn3 if one can work in that smaller size which is actually twice N scale by the way so might be plenty big enough?. I've worked in O scale for many years and would recommend anyone thinking about getting into it make a realistic assessment of their available space cause O scale  eats it up rapidly, also one's reaching ability has to be strong and long to work on those wide scenes. ..DaveBranum

I think if there is a

I think if there is a reasonable way to model On30 in say the 70s or 80s even with small diesel power, I'd be hooked.  I'll claim ignorance to the possibilities of this scale for now, but the idea of working with larger models that can run in about the same area is very appealing.

a reasonable way to model in the 70s or 80s with small diesels

 Look at S scale standard gauge, it takes about the same space as On30 . Lots of nice running S scale small diesels and a good selection of rolling stock suitable for the 70-80's timeframe. Additional advantage is the scenery is about 75% the size of O scenery so much easier to fit in something one can reach..DaveBranum   

Welcome to the world of the narrow minded Den

I've modeled in a lot of scales, HO, HOn30, On3, O, Proto:48, G, 7.5" gauge live steam and I can tell you that I have never had as much fun as I am now having with On30. There is just so much available at reasonable prices that there is really no excuse not to get into O scale narrow gauge these days. Like others have said before me, get a smattering of some of the inexpensive Bachmann stuff and play around with it. As far as your available space, you have plenty of room for a nice switchback layout. Try looking up Tom Beaton's Broak & Kantaffordit layout. It was in On3 and was built in a space just marginally larger that yours. It's a beautiful logging switchback RR.

As far as track is concerned you've got much advice already. I might just add that, personally, I have had issues with the cheaper Atlas switches and the larger On30 locos. The plastic frog is not long enough and the large wheelbase locos can span across the closure rails and cause a short. I thought I'd save a little time and use these in the hidden areas of the layout, the rest of the track is hand laid, but I have since had to modify them, nullifying any time savings.

I agree that the On30 Annual is a good publication to look into, There are several of us on here that have been published in the "Annual".

Good luck, and welcome Den

As fer' you folks looking for "diseasels" try looking at the stuff the White Pass and Yukon ran. Sure it's actually 3' gauge, but that's what On30 is all about... don't sweat the small stuff

Hope this helps.

I considered On30 when I switched from N....

But I really didn't think my spare bedroom sized space was big enough. Perhaps I was wrong? Another question of my own, aren't structures proportionately more expensive than their HO counterparts? I find that to be the case when looking up HO versions of N scale craftsman kits I've had.

Michael

One of the things I like

One of the things I like about On30 is the "gravitas" of the equipment.  The locos are heavy and run without the "cogging" effect that many HO steam locos seem to have when running at low speed.  The freight and passenger cars are equally more massive.

Another thing I like is that I don't feel constrained to trying to satisfy the scrutiny of the prototype modellers.  Thirty-inch gauge railroads were almost unheard of in the U.S.  So unless you are modelling the Colorado narrow gauge railroads in On30, you are free to build and run what you like without worrying if what you've built/bought matches the prototype or not.  That realization is what has lead many of us to build "critters" or other unusual equipment.

As to Diesels, take a look at the web pages for Boulder Valley Models and Backwoods Miniatures.  Both offer upgrade kits, using HO mechanisms, to allow you to create your own On30 Diesel.  BVM's kit uses the Bachmann HO 44-tonner and BWM's kit uses an Athearn SW1500 to create a Worthington center cab Diesel.  The latter is a very satisfying loco to run as it comes close to what a mainline loco might look like.  

Mount Blue Model Co. makes a really nice laser-cut kit to convert an HO Diesel mechanism into either an end-cab or center-cab On30 Diesel that looks really nice.  Anyways, smaller Diesels are available.

Where this scale really shines is in steam locos.  The Bachmann locos are well detailed, run well and are a whole lot more affordable than On3, Sn3 or O standard gauge.  For around $250 you can get a really nice Forney that includes Soundtraxx Tsunami already installed.  There have been problems with certain of their locos (primarily the Shay and similar locos) having split plastic axle gears but replacement brass gears are available from NWSL.  Unfortunately Bachmann has not been able to provide replacement gears.  They are owned by a Chinese company so they have less control of such things.

My layout, currently under construction, fits in a 7' X 13.5' room.  I built modules of 2' width of varying lengths.  It will operate as an around the room switching layout, with the possibility of continuous running with the addition of a 2' lift out section.  The aisles are 2.5' because the overall room size is 9.5' X 13.5'.  This leaves a nice aisle for the entry door, access to an outside window for ventilation and for venting the spray booth, room for my workbench in what was the closet (door removed), and for allowing my wife to satisfy her need to clean windows during Spring cleaning.  I have a removable shelf in front of the window that will support a cassette-style fiddle yard.

Its all DCC with no power districts.  For one or two operators, power districts are not necessary.  If you have a short, you know you caused it and where it is.  

An additional advantage of this scale and using the smallish room I've described is that you cannot reasonably use the huge arsenal of locos and freight cars that a typical HO'er accumulates.  It tends to keep the costs down.  The real fun of this scale (1/4" to 12") is that you can put a lot of detail into structures and scenes.

BTW, you DO have to keep in mind the size of those structures.  A 4" X 6" building in HO becomes and 8" X 12" building in O-scale, more or less.  When I was planning my railroad, I purchased and built all of the rail-served buildings BEFORE laying out track.  Doing this made planning where track and switches would go a lot easier to define.  I have made the mistake with past HO layouts of laying track first and trying to make building kits fit the track after.

Anyways there's my two cents.

Scott Groff

Here Ya go

42" gauge deisels. Not narrow enough? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotives_of_New_Zealand

Bernd

Prairies--then diesels

Any line that can run 2-6-2's (like Maine's 2' Sandy River and Rangely Lakes) should be able to run medium diesels if it keeps running into the diesel era.  And perhaps even larger ones later on, if it survives.  Of course, such a railroad would be sure to keep running steam as well--tourist business would continue to be a big part of things.

Some of the Maine 2 foot lines used fairly broad curves; the Forneys with no blind drivers required them.  Some also had main line grade tracks, and sometimes, the mileposts would pas by at more than one per minute.  In short, a full fledged common carrier on a small scale, carrying everything a larger line would.

My North Central (Maine 2 footer that survived into the 21st century will be running some large locos, depending on the budget...)

Sn3

Den has made up his mind to go On30, but I saw some comments about Sn3. The availability of products depends on what the MR wants to model. Colorado NG has a good selection from P-B-L and Railmaster (One of the MRH sponsors). Railmaster also has White Pass & Yukon GE-90 Shovelnoses. Modeling the EBT is more challenging with B.T.S. and Railmaster having the most products available. With track that is slightly narrower than HO (read On30) the footprint would be similar. But, then you have the ability to model structures, etc. in 1:64 scale not 1:48 which would be a considerable advantage in a room setting for the layout. I'm sure that Den will be happy with his choice, but I wanted to give my 2 cents worth about the possibilities of Sn3.

Sorry, didn't get a chance to scan and upload last night.

I got busy with family things last night. So, there is no track plan today.  I got to wondering about On30 track plans.  You don't see too many in print. Do most of you guys modeling NG use a track plan or do you just kind of let it grow by trial and error?  I have heard of some laying out all the track and switches, making adjustments until they have something that fits the space.  Any comments?

Den

...

The main reason I say Sn3/On3 do not have the Availability that On30 has is because of what Bachmann has created out of nothing.  Availability means more to me than just the product being made, but extends to the product stock on the open market, the product price, and the ease of finding more products on the local [i.e. trainshows] market.

If a manufacturer were to come out with what Bachmann came out with in On30, then that option will be Available too!

Den,

Track planning is an art form all to itself.  for myself, it starts with vision - I see the finished scene - and then I work back from that until I have it on paper.  I then build it, and hopefully it comes out like I imagined it!!

I blame you all for infecting

I blame you all for infecting me with this disease that is On30. Thanks! 

Track Planning

Den,

I had a plan drawn out for my On30 on a set of modules that were 2' X 4'. The modules were placed end to end to form an "E" shaped layout. One thing to remember this is narrow gauge. You are not modeling a class 1 main line railroad here. If you study the books and magazines written about the narrow gauge lines you'll see that the track was not laid out like a class 1 railroad would. Unless of course you are following a specific prototype such as western lines or perhaps the East Broad Top.

What I did first was think of what I wanted my narrow gauge to haul. I had it down to two commodities, lumber and gravel. So a bit of studying of lumber camps and the railroad that served them helped with a track plan. The gravel part would need an interchange with a standard gauge line. Same goes for the lumber once it was cut. A standard gauge line would take it to the final customer, lumber yards, furniture factories and such.

Take as an example of the HOn30 lime stone quarry line I'm going to build. It will run from the quarry where limestone is quarried and crushed. The narrow gauge line will take if from the quarry to the interchange with the standard gauge line, where it will be transfered to standard gauge hoppers for it's continued trip to it's final destination, be it an on line industry or off line.

Here's an early pic of the start of my On30. This was the interchange yard to load the logs on to the standard gauge line for a trip to the mill. I wasn't going to model the mill because it would have been quite large.

Here two track plans. The left one is the first. The right one is the one I finally went with.

With my going back to just HO scale I used the same bench work only now I've got HOn30 going on it. I'm using the same two 2' X 4' modules to build my HOn30 on it. This one depicts the quarry area where the crushed stone is loaded into the narrow gauge cars.

I took a popular plan from Model Railroader April 1966 issue and flipped it horizontally to fit of how I wanted it to work.

Hope this has helped some.

Bernd