Grade - more info please

The answer:  it depends.  Some things to consider:

Is the grade around a curve, or on a straight section of track?

How many cars do you want in your trains?

How many locos are you going to use to pull the trains?

I had a 3% grade on my previous layout (HO) and could only pull 7 cars up the grade with a single loco.

Is the grade around a curve,

Is the grade around a curve, or on a straight section of track? it is around a curve and is divided in two section. the first curve goes up to 1.3" from 0", there is a section of level terrain, and then the second curve goes from 1.3" to 2". Curves is 13.70"

How many cars do you want in your trains? well...with my newbie status for the moment i don't plan to run more than 7 at most.

How many locos are you going to use to pull the trains? this i dont know yet, i plan to have at most 3 locos, one of them a steam, the other diesels.

Hmmm.  you mention that the

Hmmm.  you mention that the grade is accomplished in two sections.  Is there a flat section between the two slopes?  If so, why not use the flat section distance as part of the overall elevation increase.  That might get you down to 2%.  Unless of course you need the flat section for a turnout or something...

Doug

Check out Woodland Scenics Risers and Inclines.

Go to  http:/woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/video/risers to get some ideas. I use their inclines and risers to maintain a steady 2 percent grade.  WS also has this foam product available in 3 & 4 percent grades. Also, keep in mind that your wheel truck sets on your cars will make a big difference too.

There was a discussion about the N scale Roundhouse Overland coaches. It was based on a helix grade of 2.5 percent.  To make a long story short the gug doing the experiment found out that just replacing the axles in the Roundhouse trucks allowed his engine to pull more coaches up the grade. He switched to low profile Micro- Trains axles.

I am sure someone will point out that how tight the swivel is on the truck post will make a difference in a curving grade. Then there is the play in the truck post too. Do your trucks swivel flat?  Or do your trucks allow the frame and car body to tilt? Tilting is not good.

You have a lot of factors to deal with.  You have the grade, the curve radius, super elevation of the outside rail, the weight of the cars, drag of the wheel sets, post swivel, etc.   So what to do?  If you are not using WS foam risers and inclines then build your grade on adjustable bench work. Build it so with some bolts and nuts that allow you to manually adjust your inclines.  Build T blocks. The roadbed sits on top of the T blocks.  You drill holes in the throat of the T blocks every 1/2 inch. Just like holes in a leather belt.  This way you can experiment with your cars and engines. You can make adjustments as you experiment.  Perhaps you will find a grade that works for you.

Den

Based on your new information

A 3% grade would not be good in a curve on a mainline track. I would never exceed 2% grade on the mainline in a curve and would only go to 2.5% grade in a pinch on a straight track. You will hear people say that this is conservative and it is; but the first priority and end goal of any layout is for it to be reliable and fun to use. The only place to exceed 2% grade is if your are modeling a logging railroad in the mountains or a spur going up a coal ramp or industry. In any case it will limit you to run very small trains.

Just my two cents.

Art 

Depends...

You may WANT a 3 percent grade on purpose.  Mining and logging roads regularly contend(ed) with such grades as a part of daily life. 

And if handled elegantly, could be a Class I mainline challenge requiring special operations such as double heading, pushers or  "doubling the hill".

It isn't necessarily a liability!

5-6% grade?

Well, in my case I have greater than 5% grades on curves.  Mine is an HO layout and Marklin locos tends to be very good with this. Not that I don't have problems, but slower running is nice to look at and works fairly well for me.

See more here:  http://www.digitaltrainlab.com

answering questions... Yes

answering questions...

Yes there is a flat section between the curves and that flat section do have turnouts

I will use the WS foam 3% incline sets.

I dont plan to run trains longer than 7, at least for now, maybe a couple years on the future . I just want to run trains

I do want/like to simulate a high dificult mountain grade on that part of the layout. Up there will be a midsize town with one or two industries (coal mine/logging or both) plus a passenger station.

I'll say this

If you like the idea, just do it.  If it works for you and you're happy with it, great.  If it turns out to be a pain in the butt, rip it out and do something else.  Its all about the "doing" and learning from it.  I've done so many things and either learned it worked or learned it didn't.  And then I know and I've experienced it.  I've had Kato locos pull more than 7 cars up a 3% grade.  As has been said, you can also use it as an opportunity to add helper operations in the future if you choose to do so to be more prototypical.

80% grade on the SJ&E

I picked up a copy of "The Railroad That Lighted Southern California."  The Story of the Southern California Edison's Big Creek Project and the San Joaquin & Eastern Railroad.  There is a photo on page 43 of a Shay going up that 80% grade with the assistance of a cable pulling it up the mountain.  This was a common operation.  Get the engine up and then pull up the individual cars one by one.  There is a photo of the cable connection to one of the cars going up Cascada in 1912.

Den

Ahhh...

80%, or 8%?

I do not believe that a Shay can make a 80% grade, 8% yes. 80% grade is approaching a 40 degree slope.

Could be wrong...

80% is correct.

Greg,

80% is correct.  You ought to see the photo!!!  The Shay is almost vertical,  The Shay can't climb that, but with the assistance of a 250 h.p. electric winch at the top of the mountain with a large 1&1/2 inch steel cable that was 12,000 feet long the Shay could be pulled up the 6,000 foot long grade. The drum hoist sat in an immense concrete block in the hoist house.  The individual cars were pulled up too.  This incline was in the middle of the railroad.  So, it was an up and down operation.  This was the SJ&E's way of not building switchbacks.  I guess it would make for an interesting model railroad with that grade.  I wonder how one would design operations around that???  How long would it take to pull a complete train up or lower one down one unit at a time?

Den

...

3% is not a bad grade, it's a fin compromise against a 4% if you don't have room for 3%.  Also, if you run in one direction more often, it will be less of an issue...down will not be an issue.

The Sierra Nevada had a lot of inclines

In the early part of the 20th Century the Sierra Nevada mountains had a lot of inclines to reach areas that the loggers and in the case of the SJ&E, dam builders, used inclines for moving products on railcars up some very steep mountain sides.  Quite a few of these inclines had extensive rail networks at their top and the initial move of the locomotives, usually geared engines provided spectacular photographic opportunities for the builders and owners.  So there are numerous photos available.  This was usually a one time affair and the locomotives were often left in place rather than attempting to retrieve them.  Hank Johnson has written a lot about the inclines and their uses in a series of books.

This was not a regular occurrence nor was it a part of switching routine.

3% and 13" curves

Think you are creating a future disappointment even if you are running small trains at this moment.    

Bill D

 wsdimenna can you explain

wsdimenna can you explain why?

as you expand layout

small curves on grade creates a lot of drag. Ok for non-main line and special situations at slow speeds. Not very usable for mainline trains.

Loads

On a club layout back in the days of Athearn blue-box GP units, we assembled trains at the rate of two standard freight cars per powered axle -- the ruling grade was a compensated 2.25%. One a 3% grade, you might achieve 1.5 cars per powered axle, probably a little less.

ok...thanks for all the

ok...thanks for all the advice...checking out the current version of the plan I've managed to change a couple of track section here and there...now the grade is 2%, but now i do have a question of clearance.

A nearby overpass is now only 1.81" high, is it high enough for clearance? or i need to get a little more grade?

@Den

Yes that would explain an 80% grade. I thought You were talking about a Shay, on it's own, making a 80% grade on it's own. My bad.

Wonder what it was like when the cable, or winch, failed...

WS foam inclines

Just a point of information: 2% and 3% foam inclines can be placed one on top of the other to produce a 1% grade. The instructions are on the cardboard wrapper.

Use of WS Risers with the WS Inclines.

Once you reach the end of your WS incline you can extend the incline by placing a WS Riser set and then continuing with another WS incline set on top of the riser.

Den

...

Wonder what it was like when the cable, or winch, failed...

There's a logging railroad in Northern Arizona that found out what happens...

There was this higher plateau upon which there was good timber.  So they built this 25% grade up to the top and put a railroad car with a cable/winch/reel on the top of the grad to pull the rodded engines and empty cars up, and then return them down on the run home.  One day, while letting the 4-6-0 or so down, the cable unhitched and the engine careened down the hill at frightening speed.  Unfortunately for the railroad, the bottom of the grade ended at a lake, and so, the engine went down the grade as the super watched and as it went out of his sight, the sound of a large object landing in the lake confirmed the fate of the engine even though he couldn't see it.

I think the left it in the lake, I don't remember exactly what became of it.

Climax

Here another example of a cable failing in Idaho, they had to strip the parts and leave the wreckage (Climax) in the woods.

http://www.brian894x4.com/AbandonedIdahoClimax.html