Normally I wouldn't post back

EXACTLY the advice I seek!

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. It is exactly the kind of advice I want ("your track plan has some serious limitations")  but find it hard to obtain. If you don't mind, please tell me exactly what you think this plan lacks?

One of the frustrations about being new to anything, is finding information you can understand. In my opinion, Realistic Model Railroad Operation, by Tony Koester is a perfect example; Mr. Koester wrote this book for other "experts" and not for me, I am getting very little out of it.

Bill Armstrong had the novice in mind when he wrote Track Planning for Realistic Operation; it is the book I feel I will get the most out of and I plan to read it more than once.

Are there any books available that simply state, "you need A, B & C" to develop a model railroad with Realistic Operation possibilities?

Thanks,

Bruce

read The V&O Story

The most influential book for me when I was learning the ropes in model railroading was Allen McClelland's V&O Story.  I think he was the first one to put all the pieces together in so far as what is needed to turn a trainset into a model railroad.  The V&O was a large layout, but the principles he used apply to a layout of any size.

The thing I see with your layout is that you have made your yard a place to store your trains, and the mainline a place to run your trains which also allows you to turn your trains and run them back into the yard.  That's about all you can do with what you have there.  In order to expand beyond that, you need to start thinking about what a real railroad is and what it does, and provide a place to do the same things on your layout.

The thing which your layout is most missing is a sense that what's in front of you is part of a bigger system which stretches from coast to coast, connecting with other railroads.  Hidden staging yards are one of the best ways to create that feeling.  You bring trains out of the staging yard, run them across your layout and then head back to the same or another staging yard.  The staging yard(s) represents points east or west (or north or south) of what you have modelled, and thus connects your layout to the rest of the world.

The other thing you could use is industry.  Railroads are all about moving freight from one industry to another, and you don't really have anything like that.  Switching industries is one of the more interesting aspects of operation, and learning what kinds of railroad activity are associated with a certain type of industrial operation can be as interesting as running the layout itself.  For a smaller layout like yours, industrial operations are a good way to increase the operating interest without needing a lot of mainline; a train or local switcher working a large industry just spends a lot of time in one place.

I'm not sure how you would incorporate these ideas into what you've already built, but I hope this gives you some things to thing about.

Keep "em" coming!!

Thank you, your comments I can understand at this stage of my modeling carrier. A zealot might enjoy Mr. Koester's book, wanting to know EVERYTHING, but not someone like me. I want a nice "functional" layout that will give me things to do. I am starting to see than another modest size table that attachés to this one, might just be what the doctor ordered. However, before I begin another table I want information so I know what to build. You talk of industry, I always thought that would come at the end of BASIS track construction; if you can, kindly give me an example of what you mean. "Hidden staging yards" I get, it gave me the best idea yet of what my layout was missing. Please keep these understandable replies coming, I might get the hang of this yet; without having to know everything there is to know about the subject.

I have to give Mr. Koester some credit, it was his book that informed my about this layout group. In my short time here, I have a much better understanding of what I need to do.

Bruce

Purpose of the plan vs. your interests

This looks like the "Berkshire Valley Lines" from Atlas' HO King-Size Plan Book with a couple of small modifications. Few, if any, of the plans in the Atlas books are designed for engaging operations. (A cynic might argue that they are primarily designed to sell Atlas track -- and in that, they are most successful.)

What you have constructed so far is primarily intended to allow a train or two to be built up in the yard, run a few laps on the mainilne, and return to the yard. Trains could switch the spurs that you have, and you could add a couple more. Unfortunately, the track plan as constructed doesn't offer a lot of potential for the kinds of long-term engaging challenge many people find most interesting.

Many plans designed from the beginning for operation suggest "somewhere else" for trains to run to and from. This is typically called "staging" and is what gives the impression of connecting to a larger outside world beyond the modeled scene.

There are pages on my website describing starting operations on a small layout. In those pages, I describe how one can designate a section of a layout as "staging", even if it wasn't originally designed that way. In the case of your track plan, there's not as obvious a section to designate as staging.

I guess one question would be, how much are you wiling to rebuild to create the potential for more engaging operations and/or, how much can you add to the existing benchwork for new trackage (if you even care to)? You ask about connecting the stub-end of the yard to the rest of the layout and that doesn't seem very possible without major rework and/or additional benchwork.

Another question would be, what kind of operations interest you? You may not yet be able to answer that question if you haven't had a lot of exposure to other operating layouts, of course.

With the current plan, one way to approach it would be to treat part of your yard as the "interchange" yard with an unseen railroad imagined to connect at the stub end of your tracks. Cars placed on the two longest tracks could be imagined to be routed from- and to the other railroad. Then "your" railroad builds a train on the remaining yard tracks to serve your customers. That train rolls out on the line, picking up outbounds and setting out cars from the interchange yard. Then your train runs back to the yard, placing the picked-up cars on the interchange tracks for imagined delivery to the larger railroad. This constitutes one "operating session".

Between "sessions", you can manually swap the cars on the interchange tracks with new cars to simulate pick-up and delivery by the connecting railroad. Then the whole cycle begins again.

You can do a few things to add variety and a little challenge. Some passenger service can add some spice and add the challenge for your freight train of getting out of the passenger train's way. This could be as simple as a single Rail Diesel Car or as involved as a small "tourist" train operation operating older equipment. You'll have to figure out where the freight train can safely duck out of the way between crossovers as the passenger train runs, making a couple of station stops along the way.

In this way, you could at least get some operation out of your current plan while you learn more about ops and, most importantly, develop your own opinions of what will constitute engaging operation for you. Then you may decide to substantially rework or expand your layout.

If I were you, I would not give up on Koester's book. I think if you spend more time with it you will begin to see the overall picture. It's really not aimed at an especially advanced audience, but a few of the concepts require a different way of thinking. John Armstrong's book is excellent and you will be rewarded if you invest the time to really study it.

In addition to these resources (and the V&O book recommended earlier), I highly recommend the Operations Special Interest Group. Membership can be very inexpensive if you choose on-line delivery of the magazine. While it may take a while to grasp all of the concepts in the magazine, the OpSIG also offers a benefit to members of connecting them with operating sessions on various layouts either in your area or at meetings and conventions. In the end, the very best way to learn what model railroad operation is about is to do it.

Best of luck!

LDSIG vs. this website

I have to give Mr. Koester some credit, it was his book that informed my about this layout group. In my short time here, I have a much better understanding of what I need to do.

Just for clarification, the group Koester's book mentions is the Layout Design SIG. It's not the same as this forum, which is part of a commercial on-line publishing venture. It's a little confusing because there is overlap in the participation in the two groups.

The Layout Design SIG is an excellent resource if you would like to develop your understanding of the deeper principles of layout design for the next layout or a substantial re-working of your current plan.

It just keep getting better!

Your reply is more of what I was looking for, I understand everything you write about and your the first to give me some idea's of what to do NOW. I was never planning on giving up Mr. Koester's book, just putting it on the shelf for a while. Perhaps I should have stated I was interested in a "Semi-Realistic" model railroad operation?

As for what am I will to do, almost anything, to get this basic 4 x 12 layout ready for some fun; the main reason I built it. I'm now beginning to see that one's imagination can be greatly enhanced by simply "hiding" things! This is EXACTLY the kind of information I was referring to in by my "A,B & C book" comment. "A" is hiding things, what is B & C?

I've received more out of these three very welcomed replies, than I've gotten in a YEAR of posting on other model railroad websites. If I'm not at the "layout" place I thought I was, who cares I like what I getting!! 

Just what I was looking for

Your "A Quick and Easy Start for Operations," is exactly the small, concise information package I was looking for; it is easy to understand and digest at this stage of development.

To all that contributed, Thank you.  I now have a better understanding what I must to to get this free-lance railroad operational............................and I'm going to have a lot more fun doing it with the knowledge I gained here!

What I see

What I see is a great track plan for running trains around in circles. If thats what you like.. the chance to sit back and railfan your trains, then thats great. Thats why I don't usually comment because I don't want to impose my own priorities on others and I really prefer not to be at all negative.

I guess I would boil down my critique to a question.. when you run a train on your layout, why is it there and what is it doing? I am not sure there is a good answer to that question.

What I like to see in a model railroad is a slice of a real railroad. A railroad that is presumably represented in some small way by our layout. The trains come and go on the layout like actors on a stage. We see only one part of it.. but the fact it is a plausible part of a larger transportation is implied.

I am sorry to hear you feel that way. I always recommend this book to folks starting out in designing a layout because it teaches how to operate. Once you know how to operate, track planning for operations follows. Or, put another way, once you know how to play baseball its easier to set up a baseball field..

I still recommend you go to chapter 2 which starts on page 10 and look over that small layout and how Tony describes a simple operating scheme. The layout shown contains all the elements I like to see. Save the other aspects of the book for later, if you like.

I dont think that you can really accomplish this by just "A, B , & C". It requires an understanding of real operations then an understanding of how we can apply those to a model railroad. Once you have the "theory" at least somewhat understood.. the ABC becomes a lot more apparent. I think you are doing the RIGHT thing.. you are doing research. I am sorry Tony's book didnt work for you, but other book is fantastic and is actually where I would start.

Chris

Purpose Welcome BNTorsney!! I

Purpose

Welcome BNTorsney!! I have never been published and have never made a How to video but I have been a Model railroader for more than 45 years and built and tore down more than 40 Railroads. The main thing I found about the hobby is Purpose. First what is your purpose for model railroading? an escape from the real world , you like trains and like watching them. You just like building small worlds and modeling in general or you want to recreate that Train set you saw as a boy in the Department store or Hobby shop window. those are usually what most people start out doing when they begin the hobby. Second do you wish to recreate the actual reason for a railroad in model form? if so then the Trains need a purpose other than running in circles. Why is the train here what is It's purpose?

1.there is the different industries - Coal,Lumber & Oil to name just a few.

2.Then there are the old Tourist excursion Narrow Gauge or Standard Gauge Trains that run on now unused logging & mining lines through the Rockies or the Red Wood forests of the west coast.

3 Purpose is really The main reason for any Railroad, be it a Model or a full scale real working company helping transport the commodities and people across the country. What you need to do is find the Reason your Railroad is where it is and a purpose. Designate a starting & stopping point on your railroad and put in some sidings with an industry that starts out with raw materials and then an end point where those raw materials can be processed into useful products.

And finally - Illusion - your trains don't have to move more than 5 feet on your layout as long as you create the Illusion that the trains are moving their products fron a starting point to a finishing point. this Illusion can be created by the scenery you apply to the Pike and by blinds tunnels or Back drop scenic dividers.

But find your Railroads purpose and go from there.

DAN

10 year railroad need a purpose

I built this layout ten years ago when I was about 50 years of age. After watching trains run in circles a couple of months, the layout sat idle for ten years till age 60. The thing that got me interested in model railroading initially was my first Kato locomotive; my wife gave it to me for Christmas in 1980. Compared to all the cheap Tyco sets I had, I could believe how much this little RS11 could do - an it NEVER broke down!

Over the ten years this layout sat, I almost sold it a couple times; now in retrospect I glad I never did. When I told my wife I was going to start working on it again, she just smiled and said to herself, "for how long this time?" She originally thought I did it because company was coming a great distance with small children. Well that was three months ago and I'm still at it.

My plate is pretty full, I'm a decent golfer we live on a golf course. We own an RV and are getting ready to go away for an extended summer vacation. But there are times I need something to do and that is where this 4 x12 railroad comes in. I want more that to watch it run in circles, I want to "operate" it.

Mr. Kostners book it a bit to technical for NOW, all the new terms are confusing. A book like that "I" have to read several time to get anything out of it. On this summer vacation I will have plenty of time for reading. When we return in the fall, I expect to have all the information I will need.

I guess I was hoping this thread could save me some reading. In any event the replies to this thread, have given me an insight into what I need. This railroad need some "hidden" staging yards, to add to an illusion of bigger and better things; I'm starting to get it.

Every railroad needs to have a purpose

The secret to having a great layout is not having trains run in circles or at least not looking like they do. Railroads, like everything else have to have a purpose and that purpose isn't entertainment in the real world. The purpose usually involves moving something from point A to Point B and vice versa. When you look at it in this light you come to realize that without that same purpose, a layout is nothing more than an expensive toy for little boys who never grew up.

That doesn't mean that you can't have fun building a layout. You can have lots by doing it the right way. And the right way isn't really that hard once you realize that it involves research and planning. You do have to start with some sort of goal in mind which has to be more than just wanting to see trains go around in circles. So what is it that you want to do has to be the first of a number of questions one has to answer before getting the process of designing and building an interesting and fun railroad.

In my case, I have been fascinated with car float operations in the Port of New York ever since I first saw them on the East River in 1956. Back then I didn't understand what it was all about. But seeing what seemed like an endless procession of carfloats with railroad cars pushed by tugboats was just too interesting to a 7 year old to ignore. So when I got a chance to redo the layout that had languished in my train room since 1987, I jumped at the chance to see what could be done. I didn't know exactly what I was going to do until I happened across a book on the New York Connecting Railroad on Labor Day of 2008. For me finding that book was an epifany.

So I would suggest tha you look around to see what it is about railroads that interests you. Don't tear down what you have already because you can still use it to test your equipment and you just might be able to modify what you have into what you want to have. Look around, join a model railroad club and read everything you can get a hold of on your favorite railroad(s). You never know what you'll find or when that epifany will find you.

Irv

Can't agree more on Koester's Book

Bruce-

You and I are in almost an identical situation.  I've come back into the hobby over the past year and have tried to build my experience up by reading the standard texts of the hobby (Realistic Mdoel Railroad Operation being one of them) and I found that was just not that valuable for me in a practical way.  It was nice to introduce some broad questions to ask (i.e. "where does my railroad exist in this world I'm creating") but some of exercises he goes through like narrowing down what his roster will be didn't have a lot of value for me for where I'm at in the hobby.

If I can offer a suggestion that worked for me it's to identify what type of railroad you want to operate.  I figured out pretty early on that I wanted a terminal switching railroad that operated point-to-point and so I picked up John Pryke's book on the subject.  That was invaluable in helping me create a track plan that was functional and practical.  If you can identify what type of layout you are interested in operating (which I think you have based on your photos) you can pick up a lot of specific ideas that can help you build the layout you want to operate.

All in all I have to say nice progress so far, and welcome to the group!  I'm sure you will find as I do this site is one of the best resources out there.  The "signal to noise" ratio in these forums is pretty good and the quality of discussion and exchange of knowledge beats any other forum out there.

~Rich

Purpose

Ok. As several posters have already hit home, this is the key.

You design a railroad around operation, not design operation around an existing track plan. Most published tracks espescially just about _anything_ based on the "standard" 4x8 is not designed with any sort of prototypical operation in mind. It's hard to develop any sort of prototype-similar operation on a small loop or figure-8.

As far as your "A,B,Cs" go, I'd consider this:

A - what is your railroad and what does it do? This will determine just about everything else. A railroad is a transportation system, and when designing a track plan, think of how it will be operated and where/how goods will be delivered or shipped.

B - decide what sort of industries you will include, and figure out how they operate - what inputs do they need, what outputs and byproducts do they create. How is all of that shipped? Truck? Rail? Where is it shipped to/from?

C - when desigining the track layout, think about how each area, town/station, and individual track will be used. Figure out how a train or switcher will be able to work those tracks. Questions like "Do I need a ____?" are easily answered when you know their purpose, and how they are used, and how you intend to run your layout.

D - the outside world. Back to A, the RR is a transportation system. It does not exist in isolation. How does it connect to the rest of the world? Is it a branchline of a larger railroad? Does it connect and interchange with other railroads? Is it a isolated terminal that only connects via carfloat or similar operation? Or does it only exist to move material between two specific locations (like a narrow guage logging or mining railway, or intraplant switching railway in a larger mill), or is everything transloaded at the point of destination or origin to/from a different mode of transportation? (like a port facility, or narrow-standard guage reload facilty). The answer to this question determines whether you need to consider the need for staging or interchange tracks and why. A lot of people refer to interchanges as "the ultimate generic industry that takes any car", and while this may be true from a modelling standpoint, it's a massive oversimplification of it's purpose.

Just about everything on a real railroad is informed by these questions. Think the old "5 Ws": Who, What, Where, When and Why. And also How, which is informed by the What and Why.

Welcome BNTorsney. I've been

Welcome BNTorsney. I've been a member for a while, but this is my first post. I think the thing to think about in planning a model railroad is "What are you in model railroading for?" My first model railroad was very similar to the one you built. I was fascinated to see my Athearn locomotives pull trains around the layout for a while, but then I got tired of seeing trains running in circles. Looking at your layout in your space, and then reading your comments about tiring of watching the trains run in circles after a while, I think you need to start over. I don't think starting over really will cost you very much at all. I looks like you can recycle everything you currently have into a new layout that would suit your interests more. You will probably need to replace your roadbed, since cork is usually hard to reuse once it has been shaped and glued down. Your current layout has a yard where trains can be stored, but it isn't really a working classification yard, more of a visible staging yard. Once the train leaves the yard, it can't do anything but run around the figure 8 and switch from the inside track to the outside track with what appears to be a passing track elevated behind the yard. I may be mistaken, but it appears that the only way back to the yard is to back the train in. In your space, I think you will need to make some compromises. You have space for a really great industrial switching layout with a yard at one end and industries at the other end. The problem there is that if you do that, you really don't have room for continuous running. Another option is to eliminate the yard, and build a "dogbone" for continuous running. You could create a grade at each end and elevate the track on the back of the layout through hills, cuts, tunnels, or a combination of all three which will help with the allusion of a train going somewhere. You then use the front center of the layout for industrial switching, a grain elevator, or some other industry or set of industries to allow you to have something to do besides sitting watching a train run around and around. The third option would be to create a double deck layout with the lower level 6 inches below the main layout. The lower level would have a hidden staging yard, and a ramp up to the mainline and a second ramp back down to staging. Your staging yard would be to the front in the center 8 feet. That leaves 4 feet at each end for a curving ramp that would then continue up the back of the layout to join the mainline at the opposite end. Assuming a 22 inch radius curves, and an 8 foot straight going up to the opposite end you would have 234 inches to climb the 6 inches. If I did the math correctly, the grade will be slightly more than 2.5%. You could have a second ramp down form the other end of the layout coming back down to the other end of the staging yard to bring the trains back down or to allow two trains to operate in opposite directions. On a relatively small layout, for 2 way operation, you probably would want double track main to avoid having to spend a lot of time going into and out of passing sidings.

Lamp out of scale

The lamp in the middle of your layout is unprototypical.  It's 1:1 scale and should be replaced by a HO scale equivelant. . . unless of course you are modeling a seen from, "Attack of the 300 foot desk lamp!".

Just having some fun.

My only input; get working on scenery and post pictures.  

Have fun!

4X12 layout

Hello - Could you post a scale drawing of the layout diagram so we can see where changes might be made without starting the whole thing all over?  You have a lot of track down and running.  It would be nice if most of this track and the plywood base can be used with just a tweak here and there to open up possibilities for operation.

Art Armstrong

correction on email address

Hello BNTorsney - I have some graphics to send you regarding suggestions for your layout.

There are too many and too large total for MRH.  Please send me y our email address and I will send them to you.  aarmstro@charter.net

converting the layout

I never heard from BNTorsney but decided to present my ideas anyway.

My understanding was that he wanted to make his existing layout more operation oriented.  The following graphics show my ideas - these are based on a diagram that I inferred from his photos.  Any application of these ideas will depend on the actual layout dimensions.

Here is the original layout

and the final suggested layout ready for industrial switching ideas

What to do with your layout

These guys are right about having a purpose for your model. I have been dabbling with this hobby for about 20 years and am now building my second model. The first looked great after all the scenery was done, but basicly just went around in circles! You need industry - like a logging yard that gets the cut down trees, then this has to be transported to the lumber yard for milling - or the coal mine, where the coal comes out of the mine, gets sorted, then has to be transported to a power station or the docks. This will give your layout purpose. And dont forget your passenger trains. After all, people have to get to work.

  Hope this helps.

Ian