I maybe wrong, but...

that looks like what was called a "horn hook" coupler. Go to http://www.nmra.org/beginner/couplers.html

Den

Thanks, Dennis... yes it is

Thanks, Dennis... yes it is but it's kind of  a strange one.  No one I ask at the local hobby shops seems to know anything about it.

I'm confused

It's a truck mounted (or talgo, if you like) horn hook coupler, common on older cheap rolling stock and the bane of beginning modelers' existences for many many years.  I'm not sure what the question is, exactly - are you asking about the coupler, or the mounting style?

As far as mounting Kadees, do you have a specific reason for wanting to mount them on the trucks?  The standard procedure is to either replace the truck completely, or at east cut of the coupler mounting bracket at the bolster (or mount the truck backwards, if nothing on the frame interferes and you don't mind the look), then mount the couplers on the body.  You'll have fewer derailments, especially during shove moves, and you'll be better able to adjust the coupler height as needed.  If you're not sure how to do it, I and many others will be happy to help.

If for some reason you must mount the couplers on the trucks, look at http://www.kadee.com/conv/holist.pdf.  It says that the #37 is the proper coupler for truck mounting on Bachmann cars.  As far as I know, there is no off-the-shelf way to mount a #148 on that truck.  You could of course modify the truck or coupler, but I'll ask again - why bother?

Even though my question

Even though my question wasn't clear you answered my question, Ken, thanks.

Let me try to explain...

First as to why.   This set of cars are set up under our Christmas tree for my grandson to play with. After the first couple of hours of derailments and all kinds of frustrating set backs I knew I had to change them if not for anything other then saving my sanity.  Asking at 2 local hobby/train shops about changing them over to knuckle types proved to be even more frustrating as they just wanted to sell me a brand new set because they said the same thing you did about it not bothering.  I'm not sure if they didn't know or maybe their goal was simply monetary (take advantage of old newbie and part him with as much of his bucks as possible) but they both acted like this was a strange set-up.  

the only reason I wanted to mount them on the trucks was to keep it simple.  I read some posts about body mounting them and the advantages of doing so but I wanted to get them up and running ASAP so my grandson could start enjoying them.  I didn't want him to get frustrated and not want to deal with them.  It looked like a simple unscrew and replace project we could do together...  now I know better.  I just get a sense of satisfaction of doing stuff myself instead of just buying new... hard to explain.   replacing the trucks on a cheap set of trains didn't seem economical or very fulfilling.  And as i said these are my experimental cars.  I wanted to use them to pick up some new skills like weathering and things like that.  My plan was to do this quick fix and them later on experiment with body mounting them.  That way he's always have his "Christmas set" as we worked on an official lay out in a spare bedroom.

thanks for the Kadee #37 info.  I think I was reading the list incorrectly the first time I looked at it

"All Freight Cars (Generic)...................... 37 TM, NO.5® or 148" 

looking at it now I see it says you need the 37 for truck mount.  The #5 and 48 would be for body mount.  Don't know why i didn't notice that before.  Senior moment, lol.

at any rate thanks you again.   I now have enough info to make a decision on as how to proceed.

Truck vs Body Mount

Are you sure its the couplers and not the track that's causing you problems?

If its the track then fixing the couplers won't solve the derailment problems.  And there is always the chance that the problem is the truck mountings, converting to  truck mounted Kaddee's won't fix that.

You might want to pick two cars, replace the couplers in one end of each and then run them around the layout some to see if the performance improves.  If it does, then replace the rest.

Just a reminder if you install truck mounted couplers now, you will have to buy couplers again when/if you body mount them.

Thanks for you reply,

Thanks for you reply, Dave.

Yes, originally I had track problems.  the floor was uneven, joints were not completely flush and they needed a GOOD cleaning, but i pretty sure i have that under control now.

Just running around that track doesn't cause the problems.  In fact, they run pretty good.  The problems come into play when he starts actually playing with them.  He likes to pretend he's picking up passengers so he starts and stops it a lot or he needs to back up and things like that.   I like the idea he gets into the fantasy and i want him to enjoy it as much a possible. 

Yeah, i thought about the added expense.  I think I paid $28 for 24 #148's so it's not too bad.  even if I wind up not using them on this I figure the 148 might have a use somewhere else down the line.  Good to have on hand for an emergency.

Glad I could help

I can definitely understand your reasons.  That's why I asked - there are some valid reasons for keeping truck mounted couplers, and simplicity is definitely one of them!

Since you mentioned keeping the trucks, I'll make a suggestion.  Invest in "The Tool" - a truck bearing reamer - and some metal wheels when the time comes to upgrade.  I have a number of older cars with snap-on trucks, and all of them run reliably now.  I cut the coupler mounting brackets off, ream the bearings, add metal wheels, and paint the trucks, and in many cases they look as good as the somewhat more expensive screw-on trucks and work just fine.

Here's something to think about when it comes to the couplers.  A pack of Kadee #5, #58, #148, or #158 couplers costs about the same as a pack of #37s.  As I look at the drawings of the #37, I'm not sure how they would mount, but it looks like quite a few pieces.  For the time and cost, you may find it easier to body mount a simpler (whisker spring) coupler.  I'm not trying to persuade you, merely offering advice on what might be the easiest option.  Also, look carefully at the trucks. If the couplers hang low or ride high, or if they can flex vertically a lot, simply adding knuckle couplers may not resolve your problems.  In addition to the issues of side thrust in curves and unprototypical appearance, the inability to control the height of the coupler is one of the biggest problems with truck mounted designs.

Body mounting is as simple as adding a styrene pad (or shaving down a smooth surface, depending on floor height) where the coupler goes, then screwing the box to the floor.  If you use a Kadee coupler height gauge, the back side is the right height for a mounting surface for a #5 coupler box.  Simply put the car and the gauge on the track, roll the car over the gauge, and determine how much material to add or remove from the floor to get the right height.  When it's perfect (and assuming that there is nothing else hanging down in the way, of course) the car should just slide over the top of the gauge.  Of course, there are over- and under-hung couplers and a variety of boxes, so sometimes it's possible to find a coupler which mounts directly without any modification other than drilling a hole.  I still prefer the standard height, though, since other couplers (I'm partial to Accu-Mate Proto or Sergent Engineering) do not come in the same variety of heights, and all (at least as far as I am aware) will mount properly on a surface that is correct for a #5.

From the Kadee web site, here are two gauges (I didn't know they had 2!), #205 and #206:

#205

#206

Final thoughts:  Don't let anyone tell you that what you have is not good enough.  That goes for anything, not just these particular cars.  I have found that older equipment can be made to look and run as well as the more modern, more expensive stuff.  There's no reason to replace it if it makes you happy.  If someone tells you that whatever you're asking is not possible, do as you've done here and get another opinion - often it is, and maybe even easy.

Thanks again, Ken.  Doing

Thanks again, Ken.  Doing some re-thinking on this.  After looking at the coupler a little closer it seems just drilling a larger hole and screw isn't the answer.  Doing it this way will prevent the coupler from turning freely.  sounds like some new wheels and a car mounted gear box is the answer.

Does anyone know if I can purchase gear boxes to use with the bulk 148's I bought>

Also, which one of those gages would you recommend getting?

You're welcome

If I understand it correctly, the #37 coupler box has a large hole which fits over the large mounting pin on the trucks, and then a smaller post which holds the coupler.  Never having bothered, I cannot say for sure.  However, if Kadee says that's the right coupler for the car, there's a pretty good chance it will work - hopefully the couplers come with directions!

You should be able to purchase #5 boxes.  That's sort of the de facto standard coupler box anyway, and I believe that the #148s should work properly in them.

As for the gauges, they look to be functionally equivalent to me.  I have the older #205 and it works well for me.  The #206 looks like it might be handy, since the back of the gauge protrudes and is a little narrower.  If I had to pick one, I'd probably get the #206, but in reality I'd get whichever one was available at the time.

Kadee #206

Looks like they've come out with something I've been looking for for some time now - an insulated height gauge. I like... I've always been afraid of shorting something out with the older ones. The #205 is what I have now and it's at least the second generation, as my first one had a Kadee #4 coupler in it.

The #206 is even less expensive than the #205 - when was the last time that happened?

Yep, the #242 Uni boxes will

Yep, the #242 Uni boxes will work with the 148's.  I'll also need some #2 or 2-56 machine screws.  I found an install sheet on th Kadee web site.  seems pretty straight forward.  Again, after digging deeper, installing body mounted couplers is not any more work then I would have to do to install them on the trucks (which as you stated had no advantage).

Ok, I'm gonna give body

Ok, I'm gonna give body mounting a try.

Seems pretty straight forward but I have 1 question.  When I mount the coupler box should it be flush with the floor or with the body?

Does anyone have a link to a tutorial on how to do this?

In which plane?

Flush in which plane?  I'm guessing you mean vertical - meaning you want to know how far the coupler should protrude beyond the edge of the car.  Is that correct?

If so, My rule of thumb is to put the lip of the box against the edge of the body.  Most prototype draft gear assemblies actually protrude a little, but our couplers do not couple as closely, so I make up a couple scale inches of the difference by mounting the box as far back as practical.  Here's a photo of the underside of a Roundhouse box car, and one of a few of my cars to give you an idea about where the coupler should fit:

Now, if you're talking about how high to mount the box, that's going to depend on which box you're using and the car.  If you don't have a gauge, get one, and use it to determine the height.  You may have to add to or carve away from either the body or floor.

thanks Ken, yes I meant

thanks Ken, yes I meant vertically... didn't know how to word it, lol.

I don't have the boxes here yet so i can't look but it looks to me, in that picture, that the box is actually protruding a bit past the body.  Is that correct?  Is there an actual lip on the box or did you meant the edge?

Couplers

Horn hook have always been a problem when backing. I remember this happening many years ago.

You have been given some good advice.

Make sure the cars are weighed to NMRA specs also. Too light a car will be an issue.

Check all the wheels with the NMRA wheel gauge.

Rich

Links

One link in the below link is a video from You Tube. There may be more about couplers in You Tube.

http://tinyurl.com/ct99hym

Rich

Not a Kadee box

Those boxes are the factory boxes on the Roundhouse car.  They are protruding a bit (a bit more than I like, to be honest, but it's not too bad), and there's no lip.  The Kadee boxes have a lip on the top outside edge, which I've always assumed was to make it easy to know where to mount them.  I just hold them in position with that lip making a convenient stop, then drill a hole and add a screw.

Ok, it's been a while but I

Ok, it's been a while but I now have the time and the material to start this conversion.  I have but 1 more question.

I added shims to the bottom of the area where the box will sit to make the box sit flush.  I glued the shims in.  My question is should i also glue the box to the shim or just secure it with the mounting screw?

Any thoughts?

Pros & Cons

If you glue the box to the car, you have to assemble the coupler on the car.  In some cases it's easier to install a complete draft gear assembly as a unit.  In other cases, you may find it easier to glue the box in place and just add the coupler and lid, holding them in place with the mounting screw.  If you use one screw and don't glue anything in place, the entire box can rotate, mis-aligning the coupler.  You're also putting the draft forces for everything behind the coupler in question through that screw, and I have had screws pull out in cases where I could only get one or two threads into the car body.  However, i have had mixed results gluing coupler boxes in place, with few glues really bonding well.

So the answer is there is no answer.  Do what works best for you in the situation.  Either way can work well when done properly.

Thanks, Ken. What I did was

Thanks, Ken.

What I did was use the unassembled box as a drilling guide.  then i tapped the hole and assembled the coupler and box as a unit off the car.  I dry fitted the assembled unit, then removed it.  I then added a little glue and reinstalled it.  We;; see how it works out.

Bachmann car Kadee conversion

I did one of these cars not all that long ago, but it is currently at the train club, so I'll have to get back to you with picture(s).  Here's what I remember from other conversions...

The Kadee coupler height gauge has already been mentioned, get one of those to find what kind of coupler to get.  i.e., if the shank of the existing coupler is low in relation to the coupler gauge, you'll need an underset type coupler (e.g. the 37 mentioned earlier).  If it ends up in the middle, you'll need the centerset shank like your 148's.

Now, for the middle of the coupler box: You'll need some sort of sleeve to take up the slack.  Used to be, you would buy Kadee #5's, which included a set of draft gear boxes (which, I believe, are available separately as Kadee 232's); the lid for these boxes provided both the sleeve and the cover for the coupler box.

-Fuzzy
DM Rail Group: South Fork • St. Louis Northern • Milwaukee Franklin & Norway • IndustRail • Paris Coal Railway
 

Thanks for the reply,

Thanks for the reply, Fuzzy.

I've decided to replace the old trucks and mount coupler boxes on the car. Working out great and having a lot of fun finding different ways to do the same thing.