That is an article that I will reread and reread again. I've installed about 120 out of approximately 145 switch motors and these manual controls have me intrigued. I'm committed to what I am installing ( a mix of Tortoise and twin coils depending on accessibility), but I'll have to see who I can convince to experiment with these little "knobby" things. A great article.

Charlie,

Thanks for an interesting article!

One question:  How do you handle polarity change of live frog turnouts with these controls? Or is that a separate exercise?

André Kritzinger

Cape Town.

Simple fun and CHEAP!

Interesting article.. it was not what I expected. For that reason, this is one of the best articles I have seen on the subject in a while. I have seen dozen's of articles with some variation of using a dpdt switch to provide tension to a spring wire run up through the bottom of the layout. I am still leaning to using a dpdt switch to provide frog power and signal indication which would seem to require a pushrod tupe setup..

However, I really liked the idea of the rotating knobs. Its a clever idea. I will have to give some thought to it.. it does seem a little fussy to set the travel and some stuff problematic without a drill press. I would likely use dowel stock. I would just need to find a way to, at the least, tie a microswitch into the turnout throw.

Thing is. if I give up on detecting the position and setting frog power, how do I justify not using a simple spring wire in the throw bar peco style and push it with my fingers? .01 cents and a few minutes of time.. that was how a yard I operated on a few weeks ago worked and it was really easy to work with. Well.. except the three way switch but thats another issue. My concern would be pushing the track out of gauge. Something the layout owner said had not been an issue but I am not convinced.

Chris

While toggle-switch actuated Tortoises are still fine for my application, Charlie certainly gets many modelers points for using lots of tools.

John Teichmoeller

"using a simple spring wire in the throw bar peco style and push it with my fingers? .01 cents and a few minutes of time.. that was how a yard I operated on a few weeks ago worked and it was really easy to work with."

I would love to hear more about this Chris!  A future article by you or the owner?  At least a seperate thread on it ( I hate watching threads get hijacked).

Steve

The nice thing about Charlie's system (I've used them and they work) is that there is no need to reach into the scene . . .  I'm sure he is hooking one up to the wye tail track at Oak Hill as we speak.

For those who do not want to cut their own knobs from dowels, some home improvement stores and many woodworking shops carry a selection of knobs ready to go. That would probably double the cost per installation, though.

Chris's spring wire sounds like the solution that was proposed in Model Railroader many years ago. A j-shaped bit of wire is pushed into the roadbed and also engages the switch-point throwbar. A 20 or 30 degree kink is tweaked into the horizontal part of the wire and acts as an over-center spring to hold the points against the stock rails.

A j-shaped bit of wire is pushed into the roadbed and also engages the switch-point throwbar. A 20 or 30 degree kink is tweaked into the horizontal part of the wire and acts as an over-center spring to hold the points against the stock rails.

Thats it exactly Joe.

I agree about the issue with reaching into scenery. Its not ideal. In fact, the layout I referenced* I had to worry about through trains on a raised foreground track passing under my arm. On the other hand, you always knew which turnout you were operating. One has to reach in to  uncouple anyway, though.. at least on any layout I build. I don't use magnets.

I was thinking about cutting pieces of round wood you can get for closet rods. It costs a buck or two a foot and can be sliced into many make-shift knobs.

Chris

*Carl Sentfleben's Atlantic Shoals, not sure if it will be a bit to far to be on the Hartford NMRA tours.. it was in the May 2005 MRR

Submitted by Andre Kritzinger on Sun, 04/12/2009 - 07:06.

Charlie,

Thanks for an interesting article!

One question:  How do you handle polarity change of live frog turnouts with these controls? Or is that a separate exercise?

André Kritzinger

Cape Town.

Hi Andre,

I use floating frogs on my turnouts so it's not an issue for me. If you're using anything longer than a #8 frog you'll likely find that the 'dead zone' will be too long and you'll start experiencing loco stalling. To solve that problem a micro switch could be added to the travel stop pin to do power routing. Or you could add a piece of phosphor bronze wire opposite the travel stop pin and have it wipe a couple of contacts to power the frog.

Cheers (and thanks),

Charlie

I was pondering this some more.. I realized I could have the knob appear on a track diagram on the facia with a line drawn so that the position of the turnout relative to the trackplan is indicated by which track the line on the knob lines up with.. that idea really intrigues me. If I can live with unpowered frogs (not sure in N.. contact is so much more chancy..) that would solve my indicator issue.

Basically, I want someone to see at a glance which turnouts are thrown. I personally always have trouble seeing which way a turnout is thrown looking at the points, more so in N scale, and especially if I am tired. I don't  know why, it  just is.. so as a result a "given" is that I want a visual indicator. My plan was to have a visual panel on the valence to compliment the manual controls below.. someone taking a train through town would see quickly how a siding was lined..

 Chris

One thing I've not done yet is to color the knobs so that there are 4 quadrants in two pairs. When the knob is twisted so the turnout is in the normal position the quadrants at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions would be green. When it's twisted so the turnout is in the diverging (or non-normal) position the green quadrants would become the 12 and 6 o'clock positions while the 3 and 9 o'clock quadrants would be red. In effect making the knob a bit like the target of a switch stand.

Charlie

Submitted by Joe Brugger on Sun, 04/12/2009 - 13:21.

The nice thing about Charlie's system (I've used them and they work) is that there is no need to reach into the scene . . .  I'm sure he is hooking one up to the wye tail track at Oak Hill as we speak.

The wye track Joe is referring to is an especially tricky case as it would be handy to be able to operate it from the aisle and from the lift-up hatch access hole (see "Up the Creek" in issue #2). The dual operator station need makes using the fishing line approach a bit troublesome.

I may end up using a (Gasp!) tortoise or something like it to run the turnout is question but use the knob thingee to run the tortoise (for a consistant look and feel). Then use the equivalent of a 4-way switch (as in house wiring - not as in railroad turnouts!) to let someone in the access hole next to that turnout operate the switch. I'll probably need to put a micro switch on the lift up hatch so the 4-way switch is disconnected when the hatch is down so the knob at the aisle can give predictable results when twisted (if the 4-way is left 'on' then the turning the knob clockwise would set the turnout to the 'counter clockwise' position - very confusing)

Cheers,

Charlie

Charlie,

Thanks for the great read.  Also thanks for explaining your method of indicating turnout position with color, that's a neat idea too.

I think anyone wanting to have power routing or indicators/signals could easily add a DPDT slide switch into the linkage below the turnout and still use the fishing line/return spring system to actuate the turnouts.

Because Charlie's control uses a separate return spring rather than using the piano wire as the spring, (ala Mr. Fugate). I think one could use a DPDT slide switch, with piano wire glued into a hole in the switch handle as a throw bar actuator.  Then use the fishing line/return spring system to operate the switch and turnout together.  Just be sure your return spring can pull the slide switch back to the default position..  Of course this would add something to the cost per turnout again but it's still a lot cheaper than using a tortise etc. and should provide the power switching features desired, IMO.

One of my favorite parts of the article was the actuator wire.  I don't have to bend it a certain complicated degree (other then the L leg at the bottom) and it looks simple and easy.   I like the fact the spring holds the tension.  Again, easy.  Now I just need to figure out how to get my scale size switch stands to rotate when the switch is thrown and I'm all set.

Nate

Now that's the kind of article I'd like to see more of. The use of a wire, line and spring is so simplistic, the 'knob' can be built any number of ways. Wiring frustrates me to no end. My layouts is so small, all I need is a power bus and a couple of feeder wires. As it was, I ripped out the couple of badly installed switches I had in favor of using my finger to change the turnout.

With line,a spring and a wire, I could easily install the five remote turnout controls I need in a weekend.

This is exactly what I'm looking for.  The price is right; the description superb and complete, and the safety aspects are identified (I have 9½ fingers, since 1968, so that's high on my list!!!).

Charlie, and MRH, thanks much.

I designed something similar to this once so I had quite a chuckle reading hte article...I called mine Dialomatics.  But your's is slicker - and you solved the over extension problem caused by turning the knob too far!!

While looking at your article I noticed that the two stop nails and the stop pin could be used for lighting controls like dwarf signals and or lights mounted on the facsica to indicate turnout direction.  I have some switches that I wired for indicator lights where I used nails and the throwout wire as the power to LED's.  You solder the power wire to the stop pin on the dowel and the leads to the green and red lights to the stop nails. Then whenever you turn the knob the lights automatically change, very simple.  I guess you could also use them for turnout power routing too, if you used resistors on the LEDs. Thanks for the fine article and great pictures, I like lots of pictures to show me how to do stuff, just words don't get it, I like to see how it's done.

Great article, and the pictures really complete it. I will be using these on my layout currently in progress!

You solder the power wire to the stop pin on the dowel and the leads to the green and red lights to the stop nails.

I had a simlar thought but was concerned about good contact. I was thinking maybe a wiper at each end that has some spring to make positive contact to the pin would be an alternative.

Chris

I think there could be issues with using the pins alone unless there is spring tension holding the pins together at both ends of the rotation.  Some sort of spring loaded "wiper" may be a solution.

I think there may be some merrit in the idea for signals and indicators but for power routing I think adding a switch to the linkage may be a better solution.

I wonder how well the knob wiring would handle the constant movement of the knob in and out and back and forth?

I have successfully used all of the following for electrical switching, power routing, etc. for N-scale all the way up to 1½ inch scale:

Phosphor-bronze strips and wire (available from Clover House:  their ad is in the latest MRH e-magazine).  It's a bit springy, so I've used it for caboose and observation car wheel and axle wipers a lot.

contacts from electronic and phone equipment surplus relays.

stainless steel/piano wire (don't try to solder to it!)

Strips cut from plated spring-steel panels out of used polaroid film cassettes.  (you can tell that I'm in to cheap!)

micro-switches (Like Charlie Comstock uses on the swing gate in "Up the Creek" in MRH issue 2):  Trouble is, they cost money!

Nails:  don't think so:  they rust, and I don't like to re-do things.

I'm using 2" foam on top of my OSB deck, would it be a good idea to increase the gauge of the piano wire since I'll be using a longer piece to reach the switch?

Increased wire size would help with excess springiness. An alternative would be to sheath the "standard" size wire in a piece of brass tubing from where the fishing line connects to the actuator wire to within about 1.5" of the turnout throwbar.

If you try either of these methods please post on what you did and how well it worked for you.

Regards,

Charlie

Put a magnet on each Pole - it instantly stays stuck!! 

I noticed a few people mention they would or may have trouble figuring out which way the switch was aimed. I have a cheep and fast solution.

instead of a control knob drill a 1/8 inch hole through the dowel the knob would be connected to. then take a 1/8 inch dowel about 1-1/2 inch long and stick it through the dowel where the knob would be attached and glue it in place. then place 2 marks on the panel above or below the the main dowel an inch apart or place a R for right and L for left. the smaller dowel stuck through the main dowel would be both the direction control knob as well as the indicator arrow as to which way the switch is set. and for those that don't have a drill press to make the knobs or want to avoid the extra expense of buying ready made knobs can use the smaller dowel at a much lower cost and actually take less time to assemble. As far as stops to keep the switch handle in place use 2 short finish nails similar to the stops on the inside of the fascia. after every thing else is assembled turn the handle from one stop to the other and tap the finish nail into the fascia on the inside edge of the handle or vertical 1/8 inch dowel then leave this finish nail stick out of the fascia approximately 1/4 to 3/8 of and inch. allow the main dowel to slide in and out so when switched pull the main dowel out far enough to let the 1/8 inch dowel clear the stop finish nails and simple push the center dowel in once passed the exterior stops to hold the switch in place in which ever direction you need the switch to be.

what I was trying to get across was more for people without a drill press and no forstner bit. they could use the small dowel as both a knob and a direction indicator rather than the expense of buying the ready made knobs when they were unable to manufacture the nice little knobs charlie made and with the little dowel you just need an "R" and an "L" on the fascia and the dowel position tell the rest.

there is also the people that are color blind that couldn't tell you what color was which on the targets idea and a small arrow on the knob would also work with a "R" and "L" dry transfer lettering on the fascia may work better for some people. I was in no way putting down Charlie or his great Idea for inexpensive switch control just adding to it. I believe that's what this forum is for, exchanging information and Ideas.

Understood!  I was not accusing you of putting down Charlie OR his ideas.

I just misunderstood when I thought you missed seeing his solution.

I believe that's what this forum is for, exchanging information and Ideas.

Your sarcasm was hardly necessary.  I'll remember to not comment on anything you post in the future!  My apologies,

Dan,

Your idea of putting a smaller dowel through the shaft instead of making a knob is interesting. It would certainly solve the problem of knowing which way the turnout is thrown. However it wouldn't provide the mechanism to 'lock' the points in place. Refer to the animation in the article showing the operation of the control from the front. If you look carefully you can just see the locking pin on the back side of the knob and the hole in the panel it gets shoved into. Once in that hole the turnout control won't rotate locking the points. Without the locking mechanism you're depending on the friction of the 3/8" dowel in it's hole to keep the points where you last set them. As time passes I expect that the 3/8" dowel's movement in its hole will become looser and looser perhaps to the point where the tension from the spring could pull the knob (and points) out of position.

This would be also be an issue for commercially available knobs. The only way I could see to deal with it would be some kind of over-center spring in the rear to keep the shaf twisted firmly on way or the other. The locking pin and some precision in knob and panel construction seemed easier to me.

Cheers (and keep those ideas coming),

Charlie