"getting Real" - Marty McGuirk

Thanks for the great article on modelers vs. rivet counters.  I put myself somewhere between 'out-of-the-box' and prototypical accurate.  I model UP in the 1960s, somewhere between Kansas City and Cheyenne, WY.  My intent is an impression rather than spot-on accuracy.  A little weathering, replace a few molded on details with wire, replace plastic wheelsets with metal ones, replace plastic couplers with metal Kadees and spend the rest of my time enjoying the hobby of model railroading.  Again, thanks for a great article and congrats on being part of a very good online model railroad magazine.  Keep up the good work.

UP Fan

Achievable goals

Thanks for the article, Marty. I think you put it nicely how having a "prototype" model railroad is achievable. It's a great example of how modeling with knowledge can make all the difference.

Of course, it doesn't hurt that this also contains a great how to on a CV hopper, timed nicely I might add with my own progress!

Cheers!

It's nice to be noticed

Marty did a terrific job at the beginning, defining what a Prototype Modeler should be.  If we can all remember that "It's just toy trains" and have fun with this, while still taking it seriously (i.e. no pink & purple trains, pulling zebra-striped rolling stock, ending with a polka-dot covered caboose) and going to the level we're 1) comfortable with and 2) can afford (mentally, chronologically, economically, etc), than the hobby is an enjoyable past-time.

I enjoyed how he went through the detailing of the Hopper.  While I'm not modeling a CV hopper, it gives plenty of newbie tips as well as methods that can apply to anything I choose to model (researching & eventually modeling RF&P hoppers, for example).

While I'm a bit overwhelmed with a large portion of this magazine, I think Marty's article is "dead on" and please pass on my Kudos.

R/,

Norm

Prototype vs Rivet Counters (RC's)

Marty,

Thank you for writing this article, I hope some of the so called RC's will get rid of that thing they have stuck up their Rear and realize we are all in it for the fun, whatever that may be. Some have more then others and the RC's somehow manage to squeeze the fun out of this Great Hobby of ours.

There is nothing worse, than someone who thinks he is better than you, telling you that the engine you just kit bashed or scratch built is not correct. No matter how terrific or amazing your work is.

Thanks from way down deep for putting it in print and exposing these wannabe's

Oh! BTW, great how to article on CV Hoppers.

Ralph (Toronto Canada)

Member of CARM (Canadian Association of Railroad Modelers)

Prototypes

Sorry - still way too anal for me. But I do appreciate detail from the author. Maybe some day! 

...while still taking it

...while still taking it seriously (i.e. no pink & purple trains, pulling zebra-striped rolling stock, ending with a polka-dot covered caboose) and...

um....

What's so wrong with that other than it's the last think you expect to see??

If you take offense [see something wrong with the purple, pink, and zeebra stripe] how are you any different from the more sensitive guy who see's something wrong with Warbonnet on a GG-1, a Pennsy Belpair in SP Sunset, or a container trian pulled by challengers and bigboys?  Or any different from the hyper-sensitive who gets jollies about a missing sightglasses, fans 6" too small, or rivets two feet too high?

The trick is to learn to take no offense to whatever is on the rails and to learn how to enjoy it - no matter WHAT it is!!

I'll admit, I'm confused

And I don't understand what's way too "anal" for you? 

This is a prototype modeling column

and for that reason it will adhere to the prototype. We all have to indulge in a little freelancing, especially when we get beyond models of individual cars, locomotives, or structures. I'm not sure any of us, for example, would enjoy a mile-for-mile replica of the real thing even if we had the resources for such a layout.

But we will keep things grounded in reality - since this is a prototype modeling column. So, if you want to run polka dot cars that's fine by me. Just don't look to find them featured in "Getting Real" at any point in the future!

Getting Real

Marty,

This is a great introduction to 'prototype modelling' - just wish there was more interest in this here in Scotland. There are a few members of NMRA British Region pushing the concept but it's hard going.

We have an annual NMRA Scotland Division meet and last year had a smalll RPM display, boosted by the presence of our guest speaker Tony Sissons from Carolina. He is an excellent modeller of both US and British outline so was also a good draw for our friends doing the British scene.

But this Spring we will be on our own, again with an RPM section. Your comments will be a useful script for me to try and bring some of our members 'into the fold'.

Please keep up the good work.

Regards,

Des Norman,

Perth, Scotland

following a plan

A sufficient reason for me to attempt prototype modelling (making models of things that were actually in-use) is that, in some ways, it's easier than freelancing. (Heresy!) In duplicating an item or scene that really existed you are able to use blueprints, historic documents, personal experiences, and the photographic record to ensure that your finished product is accurate, appropriate,  and believable.

If you want to build a completely freelanced layout (or engine, or wagon) that still looks realistic and true-to-life, you will have to take the time to truly understand the various practises & methods that real rolling stock builders, locomotive manufacturers, & railways followed in order to avoid mistakes in logic, appearance, or function that will detract from the overall effect of your complete construct. All those grab irons, ladders, stirrup steps, brake wheels, and other safety appliances are at certain locations and of specific sizes & shapes for good legal & historic reasons, for instance.

Why are couplers & running boards supposed to be unpainted? Why do you have all-weather cabs and ploughs on engines that serve in a geographic region where it never snows? Why are all of your engines oil burners when you're modelling a coal hauler? How did a marginal & rundown logging/extraction line ever afford to build a long series of expensive steel bridges? Why are all of the passing sidings on a supposed Class 1 railway less than half a typical train length? And so on... Any one of these items will detract in some small way from the overall effect, but too many deviations might prove fatal to whatever your original premise was.

This is, of course, all predicated on whether the hobbyist is setting out to build an accurate model of a railway (following historic practises and procedures in a true/plausible historic setting with down-to-the-car rosters), or is purely interested in displaying a variety of unrelated equipment they've bought or built for their own enjoyment. In the latter case you can certainly still build individual "prototypes" but there is no need to concoct a fake backstory/situation in which all of the disparate elements were brought together.

Bobcat, you are

Bobcat, you are SPOT ON!!!!

It's one reason I freelance - I like that challenge.

Research is the best part!!

Great Stuff, anal and all!

Hey Marty,

Geeze, you look 20 years older than the last time I saw you and that was only 11 years ago

At least you still have some hair and teeth, ah - this getting old stuff stinks, but it does beat the alternative.

Hey dude, loved the column and hope there is more to come. I think you described to a tee my feelings on prototype modeling. And hey, if someone else has a different view, that's cool too. We all get different things out of the hobby.

One question - when you cut the taper off the ribs on the hopper, and then glued stip plastic in place - did you need to fill any gaps? If so, was there any trick to sanding the filler while not destroying the nearby rivets? Just curious.

Drop me a email sometime and let's catch up.

Best regards,

Mikey

I'm PROUD to be a Rivet Counter and you should be too

Marty,

The first column is a great start, but I was disappointed that you chose to perpetuate the pejorative use of the term "rivet counter".  Whether you admit it or not, you ARE a rivet counter (RC).

I am a RIVET COUNTER, and I say that with pride and without prejudice.  I count rivets on a daily basis.  I know that the difference between an AC&F type 11 and type 17 tank car is that the later had double rows of rivets on the tank seam while the former had only single rows.  I know that the D&H 1932 AAR boxcars were welded, not riveted.  I know that the PRR I1s had a riveted splice/batten down the center of the cab that has rarely been modeled.  These all matter to my modeling!  It is the rivet counters of this hobby to which we all owe the incredibly detailed and accurate models that we have today.  Why is it that we admire the excellent work of modelers like Ted Culotta, who clearly knows how many rivets belong exactly where, and then turn around and bash rivet counters?  In my experience, rivet counters are usually damn fine modelers, and also willing share what they know, work to help others (those who care) to become better modelers and often contribute directly (and without pay) to the production of fine commercial models.  People who walk up and criticize other people's models unbidden are not rivet counters, they are rude PITA.  I (and the RCs I know) would NEVER walk into a layout and criticize it just because the owner was running a 1970's Santa Fe boxcar on a 1930's era layout.  I just say to myself, "I wouldn't do that, but hey, its his/her layout".  On the other hand, if that owner then asks me what I think, I'm going to tell them.  I'll try to be polite, and I usually preface any comment with, "I'm a rivet counter so..." but if the truth hurts, then don't ask!  It has been my experience that many people bashing rivet counters do so out of their own insecurity and not because of any real offense on the part of the rivet counter.  

Anyone can become a rivet counter! Its fun, its easy, and it adds a whole new dimension of realism to your modeling.  Just a word of warning, once you get started, you can't stop!  (and of course, some of your friends may not speak to you again, but if that's the case, you're probably better off without them and there are lots of REALLY friendly rivet counters.)

So, in conclusion, I would like to ask that Model Railroad Hobbyist make it a policy NOT to use the term "rivet counter" in the pejorative sense any more but rather to celebrate the rivet counters as a vibrant and essential part of the hobby (but obviously not the ONLY part!)

Bruce, I think we're in complete agreement here

Most people use the term "rivet counter" as a perjorative. I didn't originate that use, nor did you. And, like you, I think this expressed lack of tolerance for rivet counters is really defensiveness on the part of many. Like you and dozens of other prototype modelers we both know I don't make it a habit of criticizing someone's models "just because"- so the perjorative use of the label "rivet counters" should not be automatically assumed to apply to "prototype modelers." 

That's the point I was trying to make (somewhat tougue-in-cheek).  Sorry if I failed to communicate that effectively.

Perhaps I should written "I've never seen any prototype modelers count rivets on other people's models."

I do believe prototype modeling is ready for the next evolutionary big step - beyond individual elements such as locomotives, cars, and structures to the layout itself. Doing so requires some tough decisions regarding emphasis if the layout is something more than miniscule in size and is going to achieve some level of "completion" in a reasonable period of time.

Thanks for the comments,

Marty

Rivet Counting and Reality

I have nothing against rivet counting but sometimes it can get in the way of enjoying this hobby especially in the smaller scales. It can be done in HO Scale but in N or Z one has to have extraordinary visual capabilities or install maginfied glass around the perimeter of the layout to be able to show off that level of detail.

So let me tell you a story which illustraes why folks generally deprecate rivet counters.

A few years ago I wa sreading a model magazine that contained a cartoon showing to modelers discussing a 54mm figure of a Greek hoplite. One was saying to other:

"The dirt uder the toe nails is the worng color for the Peloponesian Wars."

First of all, a 54 mm figure is just about 2 inches in height so the toe nails of the figure would be tiny and would require a good magnifying glass to say any detail of them let alone the placwe where the dirt would be. Second of all, does anyone alive today really know what color the dirst on the battlefields of the Peloponesian Wars was?

Well this carton has served as an illustration of the ills that rivet counting can lead to to. And to put the issue in perspective, if we are trying to create a small reproduction of reality we just about all fail on that because reality would require not just moving trains but also moving cars and trucks, people, traffic signa;s and all of the other myriad details that we try to show with static figures, fake traffic signals, and all the other stuff we put on the layout. So if you want to be ultimate rivet counter, you soon will discover the futility of foing everything realistically.

Sure its nice to detail everything, but if you do that when are you going to run your trains or perform bodily functions, earn a living and deal with life in general?

That's why there is a three foot rule. Besides, by not inlcuding every tiny detail, we allow our brains to fill in what's missing.

Irv

Looking at the dirt painted under the toenails of a figure

sounds a LOT more like one of the PITAs Bruce was talking about than a "river counter."

Marty

Dirty toes...

Marty said:

"sounds a LOT more like one of the PITAs Bruce was talking about than a "river counter.""

Yeah for sure! :o)

With my comparably limited experience...

I think modelers who are passionate about the hobby, who when asked for their opinion, give it honestly and without trying to come off as superior or trying to belittle are just savvy, dedicated model railroaders.  They typically give freely of their experience and knowledge in an effort to help the next guy.  I think this describes a lot of the people whom frequent this forum and certainly the people who make MRH what it is and will be in the future.  I don't think the term rivet counter fits these people at all.

Modelers who stand together and whisper, snicker and point, who try to come off as being superior and happily belittle other modelers efforts are the PITA's Bruce mentions.  I don't think rivet counter applies to these people either.

Maybe there are no rivet counters out there after all...

Its just a name!

The title of the article says it all.

'Getting real; Different things to Different People'

This hobby is big enough to encompass all forms of modeling, whether its prototype modeling or freelancing or anything in between. Its when it comes to that holier than thou attitude I hate. Yes, I strive towards prototype modeling but I also accept my limits and can live with it. However, I'm always willing to learn and improve.

Brian W.

Simple Generalization

I think most of us can come up with a story like Irv's.  I know I have at least one, but the problem is that we tend to associate "rivet counters" with these snobby (and few and far between) individuals.  This leads to the defensiveness that Bruce and Marty mention - because if you have this perception of RCs, your instinct is to get defensive when they critique your work when really most of them are just trying to be helpful.  And as was said - if you ask the question, don't get upset about the answer. 

Well, if someone tells you,

Well, if someone tells you, "that's a nice tank car model, but it has one row too many for that specific car number" just tell me what perseption me or any other person as the owner of that car is going to have of said Rivet Counter??  Because before that moment everything was just as realistic as it would be if the rivets were correct - but now more people know the scene or the model is "Wrong" so it's no longer realistic and thus undesireable.

Quickest way to ruin something fun in my mind.

For a long time I was content

For a long time I was content to be a "Highrailer" until I met a so-called rivet counter.  I wanted to respond to his analysis of my layout and try to please him. My next layout was pure scale with hand-laid track and all that. Well, he still wasn't satisfied and so I kept trying to elevate my layout to no avail. Then I realized that I would never please him, so I went my own way.  I do realize that we need those RC's to inspire us to try and achieve new levels of modeling expertise. In the end, however, we really ought to just please ourselves and just get the most enjoyment out of the hobby as we can. I'm a proto-freelancer and draw my inspiration from folks like Ellison, McClelland, Allen and others who had freelanced pikes.

BTW, I was talking to a Civil War re enactor once and he said that they had their perfectionists too. They called them "stitch-counters" < G> .

 

Ribit counter?

I knew a guy who took a small tape recorder to strange places (from industrial parks, to forests, to highway overpasses, to where ever) to record sounds that he then played back on his layout using small speakers.

He always claimed that his nocturnal trip to a swampy area to record a bunch of frogs singing away at night qualified him as a 'ribit counter'...

True story (not)

Charlie

I do realize that we need

I do realize that we need those RC's to inspire us to try and achieve new levels of modeling expertise.

I doubt even that.  The people who inspire me to build better models are those who model spectacular work, rivets or no rivets.  Ellison, McClelland, Allen...every one of them freelanced, rivet counters be damned!

If the rivet counters want to be happy, they can go railfan, becuase that is the only place they will always see the perfection they demand.  and even then I can imagine them getting pretty puffy when a car rolls by that is completley incorrect and yet righthtere on the rails in front of them!!.

It would seem to me that

It would seem to me that 'rivet counters' are not what is described in the first portion of the article. I am a perfectionist, if there was a medical diagnosis for such a thing I would definately have it. Since I do not have the space or money for a full layout, I take part in the hobby through modeleing diesels. Specifically, the Seaboard Coast Line and Atlantic Coast Line, with some modern shortline diesels thrown into the mix. Therefore, by those standards I am a 'rivet counter' (sort of).

Since I do not have a layout, I try to 'prototype model' the best I can. That means going through reference photos and parts catalogs trying to figure out what I need to make my model as close to the prototype as I can. That process alone takes a lot of time and energy. As such, parts of different locomotives become more familiar, and I have a heightened sense of detail when I look at a prototype and models.

I understand that not everyone wants the level of detail that I sometimes put into my locomotives (especially not if your locomotive is handled a lot), but this hobby covers a very broad spectrum of different techniques and creative outlets. Some people focus on locomotives and freight cars, others obsess over trackwork and scenery. Rarely does anyone focus on every aspect of the hobby, else they would have a diffiult time sticking with it.

I am not an overly creative individual, but more methodical and have specific goals I want to acheive with my models.  I will not usually mention any shortcomings on a model (unless it comes from the manufacturer - they won't improve their product if we stay silent). This hobby is what you make it. Some of us are perfectionist when it comes to our locomotives, others are not.

But then again, I have yet to encounter the types mentioned in the first portion of the article. LIke I said, this hobby is what you make it.