Opsig.Org is asking or

Opsig.Org is asking or authors for articles etc.  I have suggested that one of the new guys, (J#$%G) write an article about what it is like being a new person in an operations group and part of the hobby that he knows nothing about and how he has progressed from the new guy to point where some off the hidden layouts and owners are now asking about him and would like to include him in on their Quarterly call sheets.

Granted my layout is very amiture and in no way compares to a professional operating layout in the midwest and eastern US.   The GS&M is built around getting into the basics of operation.  Understanding how CC&WB work, Staging concepts, Basic easy to follow paperwork and procedures,  (That no one ever reads...)

Had a couple of guys over this week and let them roll.  Lots of fun,  lots of ribbing back and forth etc.   if you see an issue let them make a mistake,  or if they get in too do help them out, show them a simpler or better way to do it etc.  Asking, why are you doing that and how come, helps to understand what they are doing.  etc.

Out of the 2 people that came out to run this week.  (J#$%G) has been running to the point he Completed Hermosa in a very acceptable time on par with the more experienced operators.  After a basic explanation of the PFE tain on what it does etc. (J#$%G) was set free and did a very accpble job with that train too.  

My other Operator is more green and I let him learn more and run free.  I would point out a few things etc.  but let him work and learn the basic,  I could easily tell that he had less experience running, and that he is fun and only had to hop in a few times and help just to clear up space and not bog it down for the other operators.   

Session ran for 4 hours split into two, 2 hour blocks with some lunch in the middle. Just them and no other operators.  (3 Total including me as a referee)

Newbies

Joe, your example is an excellent way to introduce ops to new people in a group that includes someone that is already up to speed.  I think there are also a number of solo guys who aren’t part of a group either because there isn’t one in a reasonable distance (that they know of or possibly at all), or because they’re just loners who would enjoy some level of operations if they knew how.

AzBaja, asking a new guy to write up his impressions is an excellent idea.  It’s been a long time since I was a new guy and I have only hazy recollections of what it was like.  I do remember getting hung up on exactly when a car card was supposed to be flipped (I thought it was more complicated than it turned out to be).  And I remember an aha moment when I finally “got” how the flow of cars worked on the railroad - after that everything made a lot more sense.

Articles like Dave’s might have helped me get the flow of cars more quickly back when I was a newbie, and certainly seem like they’d help newbies.

Maybe

Railroads don't have all that detail (waybills, rules, etc.) because they like it, its because they have a lot of moving parts and to keep thing straight they need a common way to communicate how thing move and where they are going.  That is what operations really is, a common language for moving trains and cars.

The challenge I see to Joe's sequence is how to implement that on a layout that has a mix of levels of experience.  His sequence works great if everybody is a beginner, but if two guys out of a crew of 15 are beginners, just saying we're not going to use CC&WB the next several sessions because we have 2 new guys isn't going to work.  Most layouts I have operated on frequently have a "new guy" at a session.  The real challenge that most layout owners I see have is not how to start operations, its how to train up operators to fit into an existing operation.

Unlearning

One of the issues with operations "training" is that over simplifying things can train practices that later have to be "unlearned" to get to the final operations.

If you are going towards track warrants (TWC), then the "mother may I" type operation Joe described ("Ralph, take your train to Bess and go into the siding and you'll meet a train there, then I'll tell you what to do.") is a reasonable approximation of TWC (or even CTC).  If you are heading toward train orders it is creating habits that are opposite of the concepts that are the foundation of where you want to be.  The crews, and especially the dispatcher, will have to unlearn the original training.

And that is the trick in teaching a lot of this, how to teach it without building a bunch of temporary stuff that has to cleared away before the final stuff can be put in place.  The trick is knowing what the key elements, the building blocks, of the final operation are and then what order to put them in to build towards the final operation without having to backtrack.

New Operator Training

I'm one of those new operators.  Lucky for me, have a friend who is on many call lists and he's made it a point to obtain invites for me to various sessions which has resulted in being added to the regular call list for a number of layouts.

My first couple of times at a layout, it is bewildering.  I'm usually paired with a veteran operator, perhaps selected for a high patience quota, for a few trains, starting with passenger moves and through freights to get a taste of the layout.  Problem for me is there's at least a month between sessions so retention of details isn't what I'd like it to be and ops sessions aren't the best time to take notes.

As Dave pointed out, what happens is new operators come in and the regulars aren't fond of reverting to the process in Joe's piece.  What could be done if the layout owner is serious about developing new operators is to schedule special sessions for new operators with some of the regulars participating in a guidance capacity. Might mean skipping over a regular session now and then.  Or maybe even having a newbie or two come by when performing the movements to set up a session; serves the same purpose in learning the lay of the (layout) land. 

Language

A key point is that in many ways operations is like a language, and in many cases a "dead" language that isn't used anymore.  TT&TO "died" around 1985.  The youngest people who spoke it are all in their 50's or 60's.  The poets and authors are all in their 60's and 70's (or dead).  Same with waybills, paper waybills haven't been used by the major railroads for the last 30 years.  The majority of real railroaders working today have never seen one.

While you can criticize the OpSig for being arcane, but one has to remember they are trying to document a language that nobody speaks anymore before the last native people who spoke it die off.  While they could concentrate on the easy stuff (See Dick run, run Dick run), in order to preserve it, they will need to preserve all the rules of grammar and idiom, plus all the various dialects.

Another issue that teaching operations in print has is that operations and rules are in many cases situational and contextual.  They don't make sense unless you see the situation for which they were intended.  The real railroad in many cases does use the "throw everybody in the deep end of the pool" approach.  When I took my rules training, much of it didn't make a lick of sense, until I saw it in action and then the reason for things being written the way they were became clear.  It is very hard to convey a dynamic situation in print. 

New operator training

Blazeman, one thing the group I’ve operated with the longest has found out is that even the the op session are once a month, a newbie can pick things up faster if he does the same jobs two or three sessions in a row.  Especially for the first couple times as yardmaster or dispatcher.  The first time you often do things the hard way (make mistakes would be another way to put it) and hopefully get advice from other guys on what to do better.  The second time, while those mistakes and the advice is hopefully still in mind, you do it better and it sticks.

New Operator Training

A pure training session, such as Blazeman suggested is a good idea, the challenge for the layout owner is identifying enough new people to support something.  Many times a new operator is just a guest of somebody else and it takes months to identify enough people to support a training session (in some areas layouts can barely scrape up enough people for a regular session.)

That was part of the success of the "Operations Road Show", they set up a major conventions so there was always a critical mass of new people to support a training session.

As a layout owner there is one other consideration that plays into this.  If I have a "mature" operation with car forwarding and an operating plan (schedule of trains) and I host a training session where people just run trains and switch, not using the car forwarding system or operating plan, that creates a lot of work for a layout owner.  After the training session, after the cars are moved around, I have more or less "lost" all the cars that were moved, because the documentation wasn't maintained (the CC&WB weren't moved with the cars or the computer lists weren't updated).  On a medium sized layout like mine that might mean two or three hours of matching everything back up and getting things straightened up for the next "real" session.  Some of my friends have larger layouts with 500 to over 1000 cars on the layout.  Scrambling those layouts up might take six to eight or more hours of work to get everything reset.  I wouldn't think they would be too keen on trying that training method.

So the training of new operators has to be something that a layout owner with a "mature" system is willing to support.

Signals

For most model signal systems, there are really only three rules you need to know:

1. If the top signal is green, go.
2. If all the signals are red, stop.
3. Any other combination, slow down and look out for the next signal.

If you know nothing else, those three will allow you to navigate almost any signal system.  On a real railroad the different meanings have practical purposes, on a model railroad, not so much.

Repetition

Ken Rice has a very good point: "even if the op sessions are once a month, a newbie can pick things up faster if he does the same jobs two or three sessions in a row."

In the 40s, 50s, and 60s, railroaders learned their jobs by working at them day after day, and working with an experienced crew of three or four other railroaders.  In our model world, a new operator is lucky to be mentored by one sympathetic veteran, and may not see the railroad again for a month or longer.

Real-world trainmen also had the benefit of refined paperwork -- everyone had to have a time table and a copy of any special instructions.  Although our club layout has a combined TT & SI booklet, many visiting operators haven't seen such a document and need to be schooled in how to use them.

I'd disagree with the advice to start with "easy ops" and progress to a more-developed system. As Mr. Husman points out, you're not really learning the system you will have to work with and operating rules are just a little bit complicated. On the other hand, I can't think of a layout owner (maybe Jack Ozanich?   ) who has new hires write out the rule book in long hand.

If the layout is a new one, all of the operators are new, and there aren't any hardcore operators looking over their shoulders, maybe a baby step system would work.

We have one member who wants to work a different job every ops session. He's been with us three years now, and wonders why it is all so hard.

You guys are missing the point!

You guys are missing the point -- the starting out simple idea is to LEARN THE LAYOUT and to LEARN THE RUN TIMINGS.

When the layout has never operated before, this really helps.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill here. Because op sessions are monthly, wading in slowly worked extremely well and NONE of the problems you're raising happened. Strawman argument, as they say. Stand up a non-issue and claim it's a big deal, then knock it over and show how right you were.

Remember, my Siskiyou Line layout had never been operated before. The way you guys are arguing, those airplanes should just go straight to hauling passengers, phoey on the test filights -- they might not learn the process properly. Total bunk!

Reaching – and teaching – newcomers

TL;DR: SIGs are specialized by definition, so their regular publications must appeal mostly to those with particular interests and/or experience, not primarily to newbies. But both the OpSIG and LDSIG reach out to newcomers in additional ways. 

==

As a member and contributor to both OpSIG and LDSIG, I have a few thoughts on my friend Joe’s editorial – OpSIG comments in this post; and LDSIG in a second. Reaching and teaching newcomers is an important part of both SIG’s goals. 

Hobby institutions, especially those operated by volunteers, are easy targets for criticism – and nobody’s perfect, so it never hurts to consider these comments and suggestions. Fundamentally, all SIGs appeal to specialized audiences by definition – that’s why they exist. In order to stay viable long-term, the OpSIG must keep offering its existing members ideas that stimulate and educate them. And that means that a significant portion of each issue of the Dispatcher’s Office (DO) must include new ideas, techniques, and approaches.

If the magazine catered solely (or even primarily) to newcomers, they would soon know the fundamentals and drop their memberships because the magazine was “too basic.” At one time, the DO included a regular column called “Back to Basics” which was targeted to newcomers. For example, I wrote an article describing staging back in 2012. But I have been told that it wasn’t a popular column among OpSIG members.

I think it’s important to note that most of the authors for the OpSIG (and LDSIG) are SIG members. They are motivated to write on topics that interest themselves – which are less likely to be articles for total beginners. Unlike commercial publications like MRH, SIGs don’t have the budget to pay authors.

To draw a comparison, three skills that almost every model railroader needs to learn are soldering, cutting flextrack to length, and ballasting. But how often do articles describing those tasks for a newcomer appear in MRH (or MR or RMC?). In every issue? In every 12th issue? Probably not … because most of those publications’ target audiences already know those skills.

Instead, there are standalone books published by Kalmbach and others with instruction for the newbie. This is true for operations and layout design, too, with Tony Koester’s Realistic Model Railroad Operation and John Armstrong’s Track Planning for Realistic Operation. The OpSIG’s own Compendium of Model Railroad Operations is a big investment in time and money for the reader, but includes much relatively accessible information (like my own chapter on designing for ops).

It’s important to note that the OpSIG reaches out to newcomers in other ways. There are Primer and "Ops 101" pages on their site – which I think are worth noting in respect to OpSIG resources for beginners. OpSIG members have access to the Callboard program, which offers connections to operating layouts for guest operators to visit. Many of these layout owners open at least some of their sessions to newcomers. The OpSIG also offers clinics at regional and national events: for example, my own Quick and Easy Start to Operations ( slides and handouts for a number of my clinics here).

At many local events, like the upcoming PCR-NMRA/LDSIG Bay Area Meet and the Tulsa Design and Operations Weekend, volunteers open their layouts to guest operators. Many of these sessions welcome newcomers to ops – or are even offered specifically to newbies. I organized many such sessions on Rick Fortin’s fabulous ATSF Fourth District layout over the years. Newbies are paired with an experienced mentor from the regular crew to help them understand the train operating instructions, car-card-and-waybills, etc. Everyone enjoys themselves.

Joe F. has often mentioned that people learn in different ways (paraphrasing): some by watching or reading, some by hearing, and many by doing. I’ll suggest that pairing newcomers with an experienced mentor in actual operating sessions is one of the very best ways to introduce folks to operations.

If Joe and MRH would like to contribute to reaching and teaching newcomers, I think there may be an interesting opportunity over the longer term. See the next post for more.

... and the LDSIG

Joe’s editorial also calls out the Layout Design SIG for critique, but without elaboration. As the editor of the LDSIG’s Layout Design Journal, I may (justifiably) be accused of bias; but I’d like to make a couple of points. As an all-volunteer effort, the LDJ is again limited to what authors are willing and interested in contributing. Since these are mostly (but not exclusively) existing LDSIG members, their interests are beyond what might be digestible for complete newcomers. As with the OpSIG, to serve and retain most of our members and readers, we need to offer ideas or perspectives that are beyond the basics. That said, we have in the long-term queue a few articles we label “Design Essentials” that describe more fundamental principles.

The LDSIG also reaches out in other ways. We have been presenting the 4-hour Layout Design Bootcamp at NMRA National Conventions since 2010 (too large to offer slides, but handout here). Recently a one-hour distillation of that clinic content, titled Make Only New Mistakes, has been piloted at a few regional and local NMRA and other Meets. The LDSIG also has an on-line Primer, but the content is badly out-of-date and there are substantial areas lacking content at all. It’s a long-term goal of the SIG to update and improve the Primer. (And of course, Armstrong’s Track Planning for Realistic Operation encompasses many of these concepts already.)

For both ops and layout design, I think newcomers benefit most from standalone publications that are always available, not from occasional articles in the magazines of specialized interest groups. Although I certainly don’t speak for the leadership of either OpSIG or LDSIG, it seems to me that there is an interesting opportunity for MRH to partner with the SIGs to prepare and present on-line guides to Operations and Layout Design targeted toward beginners. The SIGs would provide content and editing, MRH could contribute final formatting, publishing tools, and hosting. The entities could cross-promote. And perhaps some MRH sponsors would want to support such an effort.

As the saying goes, “Better to light one candle … “

Missed point?

Burning in a new layout and training operators are separate issues. I was talking about training operators.

Operations Meet at Train Mountain

Most live steamers will tell you that they don't do operations.  But see I don't know any better cause I'm an O scaler that happens to own a live steam train.  So I asked if we could do a simple ops session at one of the meets and was told emphatically NO!  So being the scoundrel I am we made up some really simple 'hang tags' and put them on a couple of cars and spotted them out on the railroad.  Later that day we were sitting around talking about how much fun it was and folks started asking what were we talking about.  The result of that simple start we now have a full blown ops meet every year with all the trimmings BUT we started with a simple 'hang tag' system.  The tag stated this car needs to go to xxx.  When you got to xxx if there was already a car there, treat as an empty and return it to the yard or if it had a hang tag pick up the car and move the car to the spot on the hang tag.  That was it!  Pretty simple and it was a ton of fun.  KISS works when trying something new and to see if it really works.  Russ

I find it ironic...

...that the very layout I was first introduced to prototype operation was during the LDSIG Open House at Joe Fugate's Siskiyou Line (which I was lucky to volunteer to help out with) during the 1994 NMRA Convention in Portland, OR .  It wasn't a formal Op Session, but rather a fellow model railroader, Jim Providenza, who showed up with his own throttle and smile asking where his train was?!  What really caught my attention and somehow caused me to rethink why I was in the hobby was Jim had plugged in his throttle, acquired the locomotive DCC Decoder and then did "nothing!".  At first I was alarmed at this as during the regular NMRA Tours earlier that day, we had a momentary glitch where the command station had shut down.  We rebooted it and all was fine, but I was concerned that this "gremlin" had returned.  So I asked Jim if there was a problem, and his reply was "no, not a problem, we need to get the air pumped into the brake line"  WHAT?!??!??! So Jim, thankfully, got out of "engineer mode" and explained what would need to happen if we were operating an actual train on the prototype.  And crew just doesn't hop on board and crank a throttle knob.    I won't bore you with the rest of my first "prototype operation" experience only to say it was a blast for me.  It slowed things down (such as having to WALK down the train as a brakeman to throw the switch points on a turnout).  

I had read about Prototype Operation here and there, and it never really seemed something I would be interested in doing.  Thanks to Jim Providenza (and Joe Fugate!) I had a first hand experience at actual Prototype Operation, and though it's not everyone's "Cup of Tea", if it were not for it, I wouldn't still be in the hobby!!    And then thanks to others I have been introduced to such things as Timetable & Train Order!   

FWIW

Ken L. 

It was both

It was both. A layout is just a thing and it just sits there without operators. The layout was new (at least it had never been formally operated before) and the operators were new to the layout.

So my process accomplished both goals:

1. Burn in the layout
2. Train a new operating crew by getting them familiar with the layout

So it's some of both.

The idea is this: I'm new to realistic ops and I have this layout. What are my next steps if I want to get into realistic ops?

So it's not purely just one or the other -- it's both.

Now if you already have a layout that's hosting realistic op sessions regularly, and you want to train some new guy to join that layout's ops crew -- that's a completely different animal. I'm not talking about that.

Byron

The point

Might be a relevant thread :  https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/38164

Maybe we think that's more or less a minor point.  If you have a timetable or map and track diagrams, you can pretty well navigate.  Knowing the layout doesn't give you any real information on how to operate it.  Learning the run times is cool, but the primary users of that knowledge are the layout owners and the dispatcher.  Especially in TWC, DTC or CTC.

It does.  But that's a once a decade thing.  And its only really helpful if you already know what you want to do.  If you and your operators have no knowledge of operations, you don't have anything to work towards and you have no way of know what you have done amounts to a stepping stone anything else.  If you don't have a clue what track warrants are and how they work, you could run trains around the layout for years and wouldn't be any closer to operating by track warrants.  If you understand track warrants, you can pretty much walk into any layout, get a 15 minute walkaround and be running trains using track warrants.

As you said, "Total bunk."  We are arguing that cranking up a new layout isn't that big a deal. The big deal isn't the "plane", its the "pilot".

Learning how operations work so you build a layout that can work is a big deal.  

Learning how a car forwarding system works so you can move cars is a big deal.

Learning how a train movement system works so you can get across the layout without creating havoc is a big deal.

Operating a layout the first time is neat, but its a once in the lifetime of the layout situation.  Training new operators is an ongoing effort over the life of the layout.  That's the big deal.

I go to a fair number of operating weekends.  Because I am fairly familiar with car forwarding processes and train movement methods, I can parachute into an op session on a layout I've never been to before, get a 15-20 minute walk around and operate reasonably effectively.  But that's because I know the basic concepts of operating systems.  Being familiar with the layout has minimal impact on that.  I can guarantee that the success of a car forwarding system isn't dependent on an intimate knowledge of the layout and running times, it's dependent on the clarity and effective communication of the system.

The idea is this: I'm new to

I'm going to say that you are already behind the curve for "realistic" ops.

If you want "realistic ops" on a layout, you have to be aware of it and allow for it before you design the layout.  Its amazing the number of times people post a track diagram of something, say what they want to do and then ask, "how would a real railroad operate this?" and the real answer is, "they wouldn't". 

There are two different tracks here.  What the layout owner does to set up operations, and then what the operator does to participate in those ops.  The layout owner is "management" and the operators are the train crews.  Two different skill sets, two different concerns, two different objectives.

The idea is GETTING STARTED IN OPS

The idea is GETTING STARTED IN OPS ... here's the scenario I laid out as an example.

- I have a layout
- I have never done a fancy realistic op session before on this layout
- Where do I start

Once in a lifetime thing -- yes -- or at least a once in a layout thing.

Got it? My example was aimed directly at folks who have a layout and don't know how to get into more realistic ops with it. It's also intended to show there are evolutionary ways to introduce newbies who visit a layout with formal op sessions already underway -- but MY EXAMPLE DOES NOT COVER THAT INSTANCE.

In other words, using the principles of how I evolved into full blown ops on my NEW layout, what are the ways to also help a newcomer to a layout with already mature operating sessions? I did not cover that example, but I'm asking for us to also examine that example too.

Can't be done is not an acceptable answer, that's a cop out. Belly up to the bar and take on this tough question -- you HAVE to come up with ways to make it easier for a newbie, no option. Now put on your thinking caps and come up with ways. Sure it's hard, but that's what makes it valuable once we figure it out.

Here's a clue: Why must every op session be optimized for the old hands and not for the newbies? Put another way, why must the newbies be the ones who always have to sacrifice?

Realistic ops

For example, Jim Six's layout or any of the Lance Mindhiem industrial lead layouts.  How would you "realistically" operate them TT&TO or TWC?  You wouldn't. Neither design would build a layout that would really support either of those methods.  Industrial lead layouts don't have a main track so TWC and TT&TO are irrelevant and Six's layout the train starts and ends on the main track at the station, there is no staging on either end, so TT&TO considerations would be window dressings but really wouldn't entail any activity or evoke the "feel" of the system.  There is nothing wrong with either of those plans and I'm sure that operating them would be fun.  Its just that they were not designed to support those particular operating aspects, trying to incorporate them would be mostly issuing paper what wouldn't affect the outcome.

There are two questions, how should I operate my layout and how did the prototype operate (realistically).  They are not the same question and frequently have completely different answers.  Quite often "realistic" isn't what the owner wants.  In some cases "organized" is about the best that can be done.

If you want "realistic" operations then you have to build it into the layout.  Just randomly building the layout and expecting it to operate "realistically" may not pan out.

Getting started

Great questions.  And they are the start of long conversation that doesn't involve holding a throttle.

They involve a lot of follow up questions about what the person wants to do.  A lot of the problem is people don't know what they don't know.  One question is, have you operated on any other layouts?  What did you like, what didn't you like?

One step is figuring out what the layout can support, as mentioned in a previous post.  If their layout only has one passing siding and they want to run ten trains at a time they are not going to reach that goal.

Implementing a car forwarding system is usually pretty straight forward, the hard part is deciding what type you want.  Implementing a train movement system is MUCH harder.  In any case, there is an investment in time and often money, in setting up a system.  Trying to find out what people want to avoid wasting their time and money is important to the process.

That's the rub

That's the real rub for hobby newcomers.

Without some experience operating on other layouts, they're not sure what they really want out of the hobby. It's quite likely the layout you design when you don't know any better is NOT the layout you would design once you KNOW what you want out of the hobby. (And this is where the LD SIG comes into this conversation, as you well know, Byron -- yes I'm looking at you when I say this ...)

Experiencing the hobby BEFORE you build a complex home layout needs to come first if it all possible. Or build a small chainsaw first, KNOWING it's a chainsaw layout right up front.

The other option is TOMA. If you take it slow and build a 2x6 with temp staging or a temp continuous running loop, then you're in an excellent position to discard early attempts and/or evolve your layout as you gain experience by building more module sections.