Awesome

I am looking forward to following along. One vote for On30 and POB. 

Booster Power

@ Bruce,

The one consistent thing in live is change. 

This article is a great analysis of change and the many opportunities and options that come with such change including changes in current technology.

Thanks for the reminder about the versatility of the Tam Valley DCC Booster.  I am ready to wire the first two of five Digitrax BDL168 block detectors on my 31 ft along-the-wall HO layout with lower level staging.  In addition there is an undetected switch yard and a dozen undetected spurs.  Plans include about 16 locos and I can't imagine more than about four or five operators.

Is there a fatal flaw in using one 16 volt 10 amp power supply with three TV boosters powering the BDL's and yard?  Each BDL section will be a double-gapped power zone and the yard/spurs will be double gapped from detected track.

Second option might be one power supply with six TV boosters, one TVB per BDL and one for the yard/spurs.

Waiting to see what you decide on your indoor layout.

Regards,

Interesting article. A new

Interesting article. A new direction from your usual this is how to do articles to this is how I make choices article. It is very beneficial to see how someone with all your experience makes his decisions. I have been looking at the same issues in a more limited scope for HO scale. I must be doing something right as I am looking at options the same way you have been but with different needs and goals than you have at this time.

I would suggest this as an option for you with putting two layouts into operation. Do not do the same theme on both. It would seem like twice the work for the same thing. If you do your narrow gauge on the outdoor railroad do your standard gauge on the inside layout. HO will be better suited to the smaller space than O on HO track. The curves and the track might be fitting in the same space but the bench work will be roughly 1/2 the scale size of HO for the same footprint. HO scale is still fine for added details with magnifiers if needed and in some cases molded details can be enhanced with tactful weathering, examples of such are available in the nice forum posts by Jim Six and others on this web site.

Bruce another nice article in a long string of nice articles, looking forward to your next installment.

"HO will be better suited to

I agree with not building two similar narrow gauge layouts when there are so many other interesting scenarios to model.  Also that the HO gauge of On30 doesn't relieve one of the problems fitting 1:48 scale scenery into a modest size room..If HO seems too small then S scale 1:64 could be a good compromise either in narrow gauge or early era standard gauge......DaveB

Bruce and Life Changes

First off, awesome article, well thought out and a topic that affects most of us. I vote for POB. I was ready to leave the hobby because my On3 layout ran so badly. Even right after cleaning track I would get stalls. It is pretty embarrassing at open houses to ask people to "give it a little push". I was introduced to POB thru friends in a modeling group, I did some research, operated their layouts and was sold. It is the best thing I have ever done. As far as the layout there is no more wiring, shorts, polarity issues, cleaning track, stalling, gapping rails etc. Trains just run pretty much like the prototype. I get about 4 hours run time on one charge, I have back up batteries charged. When a battery is spent, I pop off the coal load, switch them out and I'm ready to go again. The whole process takes maybe 15 seconds. People have made negative comments about having to switch out batteries, the time involved etc. I just ask them how much time they spend cleaning track. I use the CVP Air Wire system and their T5000 throttles, excellent products.

Transition decisions, life is like a railroad

Bruce,  I quickly turned to your article so soon after Thanksgiving, one might say I “gobbled” it up.  Your decision making process illuminates a lot of choices most Model rails (except tinplate) need to ponder.  Being in large scale (both indoor and outdoor) with power on board since the early 90’s I am quite a proponent of dead rail.  Now that power effectiveness vs. size and weight issues have shrunk the choice in smaller scales should present more obvious benefits to a much larger slice of modelers.  I jumped right from track DC to battery powered radio control before radio DCC was a practical option. Thank you for reviewing DCC variations and slowly introducing those advantages to us older folks who are slowly catching up. DCC has major advantages when it comes to sound, which in my opinion is a very important aspect in realistic operation. (For one, on a large layout where train may be out of sight, it tells me where it is!)  As we all age, “seeing” the advantages of larger (than HO) scales becomes obvious as we Crest the grade beyond 70.  Space for many becomes highly limited also.  I am blessed with enough terrain to stick with large scale but On30 looks very attractive as a compromise that fits modeling, running and railroading purposes for many.  Quarter inch Scale is very nice for scratch building. Scratch building in large scale (1/2”) made it possible to get my Achievement Merit awards to finish my NMRA quest.  I appreciate your walking through the electronic choices that lie ahead.   Thanks,   Warner Swarner (old modeler, new MMR)

Pacific Coast with SMV

Bruce,

  The Pacific Coast could still exist as a tourist line and cross the SMV? In HO/Hon3, or just as easily in O/On30...one could expand upon the quarry line and incline that existed above Port Hartford?  Based on our long ago and recent conversations I'm using a modular concept...I guess it's coined TOMA now?  Given the nature of my work, additional moves will occur.

  I too have been bitten by the Gilpin bug, or the Silver City strain at least.  Going to make a serious attempt in HOn2, Be prepared for some questions on control for a 6.5mm gauge model.

  I certainly will continue POB in large scale, and am exited to see what we can do in smaller scales.

RR

On30 and POB has my vote

Great article as usual Bruce!  I thought I was the only one who agonized over decisions like this to the "nth degree"! My wife thinks I'm nuts, I am sure.

I'll be fascinated to follow along to see what you decide, especially if you go the On30 - POB route.  I've considered doing the same, if I ever finish my HO layout and grow tired of it, or move.  A friend of mine in the NMRA, Chuck, did something similar.  His On30 layout was in a spare room, and operating it looked like a ton of fun.  Not to mention the attraction of larger everything as our eyes grow weaker and hands grow less sure.  

In any case, enjoy the planning and designing.  I think it's one of the best parts!!!

AC and DCC

Bruce, With advancing age I have switched from HO to the dreaded '3 rail O Scale' . As with may scales, other than Proto 48, somethings are not proportioned correctly, however my locos and rolling stock are same as that used by O gauger's (same bodies). I have MTH locos,, however not purchased DCS yet. Including thoughts on AC DCC decoders and potential for battery use in AC would be helpful. Realize that at least some of boards in MTH locos will run DC by simply cutting a wire. Curious as to what future options might exist with AC. Please don't leave us out of discussions because you are afraid of being electrocuted by the 3rd rail. 

Doug Key, Lemont Central RR

NCE and Wangrow

There's a good reason NCE was able to take over servicing the Wangrow system.  They were originally the prime contractor that designed and built it.  They later designed an upgraded version and offered that to Wangrow to sell as a replacement to the original system but Wangrow declined and parted ways with NCE.  NCE then marketed the new design under its own name.

I read this on NCE's site some months back on their about us history page, which was quite an in depth writeup.  Unfortunately they seem to have forgone that writeup on their current site in favor of a link to a terse WIKI article.

Thanks for the article

I need to re-read a couple of times.  Newbie here, reviving DC (HO scale) stuff my Dad left behind.  Didn't want to rock the boat (with the Mrs) by going whole hog on DCC and not being able to use any of Dad's stuff.  Of course I've already invested in a lot of other (all DC) stuff as I further inspected what the inventory looked like.  I really don't want to go to DCC, and my space is small (4x8, with 2 mainlines using 5 DC Blocks + two staging tracks using 2 more blocks).  It works, still needs to be ballasted... but I would prefer to skip DCC and look at some alternatives with PoB and Wifi control.  Bluerail seems interesting.  I think the future has to go beyond DCC, though the install base is huge and killing that off will be difficult, if not impossible.  Proprietary systems will be hard-pressed to gain critical mass since unless we get a glut of baby-boomer retirees into this hobby, as future generations will be doing Virtual Reality on XBOX XLM's and PS107's.  So what options make sense?  I really want to find someway to retrofit whatever I have (and what Dad handbuilt) into the future (beyond 2005's DCC).  Pipe dream?  Next gen system is going to need to find someway to salvage DCC's equipment (at least locos, rolling stock and turnouts)... but we need to make wiring simpler (I'm an IT guy, would sooner program than be an electrician).  Yes controlling trains from a tablet may seem foreign,  but DCC controllers don't actually look like prototype's cab either..... and maybe tablet's are in their future too (like Boeing 787).  Done rambling, have plenty to keep me busy this year... but before I start buying my next round of equipment, I would like to invest in the future, not the past or today's solutions.

this is a great argument for the changes in model railroading.

i am very interested in the newer technologies coming out!

The thing I was not aware of was the lack of compatibility of the new systems........

it seems to me that this issue may become an even bigger arguing point than the DC/DCC fighting of years passed.

It is going to be interesting to say the least.

Yhank you for doing all the leg work for us!

RE: AC and DCC

Doug -

I won't leave you out because of "3rd rail" fears. However, since I haven't been active in 3-rail AC since 1964, I cannot comment on current events with any authority.

Sorry.

CVP and MTH trains

Bruce

Have you heard anything about POB and installing it on the new MTH trains with the Proto 3.0 sound.  This is on a O scale loco that MTH has put in a switch for either 2 rail or 3 rail along with another switch for DCC or DCS.  I want to run the loco outside on a layout but CVP said they didn't know if it would work on the new locos.  I always read your articles with great interest.  Thanks

Great Article

Bruce,

Up until 3 years age, my 30 years in model railroading was ruled with my heart and not my head. Never thought of a decision process, if I liked it and the price was right, I bought it. I was into HO with a module club and a small layout in the 12 X 12 room at home. Then in 2014 I discovered On30 and rebuilt the home layout. It's the most fun I've had in 3 decades. Grades take the place of distance and any speed over a walk is too fast. About 15 revenue cars to haul logs, lumber, ore and concentrate, passengers and a bit of livestock, throw in a Forney for power (and a critter just cause I can), put it in the Rocky mountains just Northwest of Durango in a fictional town called Pine Hill in the mid 30's and as Jackie Gleason would say A W A Y  W E  G O. Kits for mines, sawmills and a small town are available and scratch building is something I'm trying for the first time. 

Now, about POB, food for thought.

Toyzforme

Sorry, I cannot help.

As I mentioned in the article, I have little to no personal experience with MTH products. Most of my knowledge comes from replacing MTH electronics with DCC from other manufacturers.

POB

Bruce,

i model in On3 and have converted all my locomotives to POB using CVP Air Wire. If you decide on On30 I recommend you run POB. 

My locos are all brass and converting required that I remove the coal bunker. It was easy and I have never looked back. Reliable operation and smooth running are paramount for me. I would never go back to power through the rails. 

Great article. 

Thanks,

Keith Stamper

Port Colborne Ontario 

Canada

My 2 layouts

Both my layouts represent the Eastern Pacific and Coastal Railroad. One is G scale and the other is HOn3. I have been gradually converting the g scale to dead rail, installing throttles and batteries where convenient {usually in trailing cars. I am currently building radio controls that are compatible with DCC. I like the fact that I can use the Ryobi 20 volt battery packs and run a train for over 3 hours with out having to change batteries. And the trains run rain or shine. I install a simple throttle circuit  to be able to select the track speed I want.

 My HOn3 layout is basically a small switching layout that I can build with my grandson. So far it is set up for dc operation but I have the equipment available for dcc when I want to progress to that level. I will be following the dead rail movement as it develops to see if batteries and controls can be robust enough to be useful in HOn3.

POB in HO

I purchased an Airwire receiver and throttle but how to power my BLI Consolidation was not clear without a battery car.

Miles Hale's Backshop video on batteries was very helpful though specific to S-cab but the information on S-cab's website added greatly to what I needed I know.

The key is 3.7 volt lipo batteries with protection circuit modules i.e. cell phone batteries not unprotected RC batteries. I found four very small 300 mAh 3.7 volt batteries wired in series provided 14.8 volts to the Airwire radio receiver. Three such batteries at 11.1 volts might have been enough power but four will give longer running time, sorry undetermined so far. The four combined are about the same size as a single nine volt battery which will not power the receiver.

The only problem is the CLI Consolidation is sized to hold only the DCC decoder and speaker so I had to remove the coal load to make room for the AW receiver, batteries, DPDT power/charging switch and the charger plug. Hope to find smaller switch and plug in the future or larger tenders. Next have to repair the butchered tender with black plastic sheet when I have time.

POB in HO

Almost forgot, use a lipo smart charger, keep a bucket of sand handy and never get those lipo batteries wet. Instead the bucket of sand and an ABC or electrical fire extinguisher just in case.

Decision time

Well, it's 95% in. On30 POB.

Gonna have a lot of HO stuff to sell.

Been working on my website  http://mrdccu.com

Guess the "For Sale" section will get a lot of use this fall.

For sale

Bruce, 

You might want to change the menu item on your front page from "Selling" to "For Sale." It's just a bit clearer, especially since I went over there looking for "For Sale."

Thanks, Jeff

When I was working on transitioning from the traditional site to the Joomla site, I couldn’t have two sections with the same name.

So, SELLING was my place holder and I hadn’t changed it since I took down the old FOR SALE section.

Keeping me honest!

I'm a "not quite chainsaw layout" proponent too.

I've been using HOSWap to sell surplus HO items with very good success and yes, some patience.  It may take a few months or a bit longer but I've sold pretty much everything I was advertising.

As far as the topic, most of the layouts I've built since 1990 have been "not quite chainsaw" layouts.  Most built with disassembly in mind.  My last layout came down summer of 2017 for the most recent move and I saved EVERYTHING except the scenery.

Original sectional construction

Tear down - all track, hardware and bench-work saved:

Bench-work to be incorporated in a new layout plan here in new basement being finished by wife and I.  We are just about to do final sanding and start priming the walls this weekend.  Drop ceiling to be next step with flat panel LED lights.