Not dying

I don't think interest is dying,  I think maybe that it just isn't as visible due to everything else in life.

I have friend's kids over all the time and guess what?  They are absolutely fascinated with my ceiling trains.  The youngest squeals and points (every time it comes around), the oldest watch for a while then look for more stimulation.  Then next time they come over they expect it to run.

My daughter (10) likes running her Christmas train even when it isn't christmas.  She also likes when I break out the old Lionel stuff and set a temporary track around the house.  Her favorite thing?  Hauling her barbies and stuffed animals around.  Yep, future operator in the making.  When I actually get my layout built I'm sure she will be hauling cows and stuff around to the various places. One of my favorite pics of her was taken a couple of years ago on a layout tour for the Rose City Gaden Rail Society.  One of the layouts had their radio throttles out and was letting the kids "drive" the trains.  She had a blast...

She also plays Empire Builder with us occasionally.

Her cousins (8-12) love dorking around with their grandpa's small layout, those poor little Bachmann N Scale 4-6-0s have run thousands of laps, dragging half-derailed cars through the corpses of little horses. And every sunday they do it again.

So it isn't that the younger generation's interest is dying, it is because there is so much competing for their attention.  When someone like my daughter is taking dance lessons 4-5 nights a week plus 30-35 competitions and performances a year, when do they have time to "play" with dad on anything.  Then there is school, friends, copmputer games (I'm raising a good geek), etc and something has to eventually lose out.  Even when WE were younger most of us ran our trains for a couple of years, then stopped in our teens due to everything else in going on in the world.

I think the best thing we can do is expose them to the trains while they are young, let them play and bit and encourage them to play with us when we do it.  Layout ops, WiThrottle on the ceiling layout, board games, computer games or just a circle hauling stuffed animals; ALL of them sow the seeds that will bring them back into the hobby later on.  Instill the love and they will come back to the hobby, even if only to humor us when they visit.

Kevin

Same question over the years.

The young will come into the hobby when they start to slow down like the rest of us and bring with them the childhood memories they have and want to recreate.

Interpersonal Relationship Skills

Well written, Joe.

I agree with your points but I think they're symptoms of a bigger issue where we have to put all the material items aside and look more directly at our social relationships.

It's always amusing listening to the old people talk about computer/video games and call it "just clicking a mouse" or saying things like "wouldn't you rather go race REAL cars in the woods?"  Meanwhile, I'm on this box playing with eight other people, four of whom I've never met and three of whom are my good friends who I know solely through playing these games.  When I used to play MMORPGs, we're looking at communities involving thousands of people the whole world over.

Interestingly enough, there are these forums were we get together and talk about our hobbies, where we have the same wayward outlook.  We have friends and fans around the world, and this never phases us - and yet we can't see the same community revolving around the gaming sphere?  You'd think at this point it would make sense to everybody here at the very least where the social interaction is...

In these regards, we have the old form, where you physically had to see and talk to the people you hang out with.  This was social relationships even just twenty years ago.  Today, the physical tangible world have become increasingly abstract, even if the satisfaction with that world has remained high [albeit with the new generation, because the old generation still wants the real thing].  And for good reason: we move around so much and the physical material costs so much to do anything that we can't afford to do everything in person with the real deal in our hands.

All of this being said, though, we have yet to address the social gap issue that is prevalent between the older generations and the middle generations.  I've had a flight chief who hadn't spoken to his father in half a decade, and the idea of hanging out with the train club sounded too much like hanging out with people who reminded him of his dad - why would he want to hang out with those people?

It's easy to get kids involved - give them stuff or time on the layout and they're happy.  It's much harder when you're dealing with a full grown adult who doesn't much want to be around you and you don't much want to be around them.  If it's your own "kid," you can be pretty well guaranteed there will be no interest carried on directly.  If it's someone else's "kid," you can pretty well guarantee they won't be at all receptive to the hobby and likely look crossed eyed at you as well.

The issue then comes down to our relationships with our children as they grow into adults and how that relationship is fostered as we grow older.  Somewhere in there, Our way ot the Highway turns into "Later, Pops!" and they don't return.  Or if they do return, it's because they're broke, out of work, and deep in debt, three conditions that directly impact how active someone is in this hobby.  Or it's the parents who have to move in with the kids, again with the personal issues that come with that form of defeat.  Underlying everything here are those personality "disorders" like anger management issues, depression, drug addiction, gambling addition, OCD, bi-polar, borderline personality, hygiene, apathy, in conjunction with other issues like theft, lying, etc. that you just can't so easily come back from.  Yes, I have heard of parents stealing from their own kids, even going so far at to take credit cards out and using them.

The computer screen is very nice because it effectively means I don't have to physically be around someone who is not enjoyable in person.  And if there is someone with a piss-poor attitude, I can turn him off by closing the screen.  Arguments, disagreements, swipes, you name it, I'm insulated, and if it ever gets horrible, there's moderators who can shut things down quick.  When you get into real physical spaces with real physical people, personalities can make or break the operation - and most certainly impact everyone's enjoyment.

It's tough being friendly with a real troll who's only real joy in life is poisoning the waterhole at every turn and watching the self-fulfilling prophecy come to fruition.  Their swipes are likely to go right over the very young heads, but the teens get it [through they don't have the reserves to react appropriately] and the adults most certainly understand "fight or flight," whereas they either argue back or they say "Bye bye - I put up with this long enough when I was growing up. I don't have any further life to waste on THIS."

How do we foster strong social relations in the real physical community if curmudgeons and trolls are as real and prevalent in real space as they are on the Internet?

I don't have any answers to this quandry. 

Interesting point regarding

Interesting point regarding trolls and the like Benny. Instead of needing to insulate myself from them via the computer screen I have found they are easier to deal with in person. You see in person those folks can not hide behind a fake persona and internet connection but run the real risk of getting whacked in a face to face confrontation. Being a former cop I have spent lots of time in situations that would involve "bullies of one sort or another" and one thing they all had in common was the need to attack someone that could not fight back. When faced with the prospect of someone who can their tune changes.

Now the club I belong to had over the years a member or two that would fit that description and to steal a phrase from the tv show they were voted off of the island. You see when someone like that begins as you say to poison the well it does not take long for many of the group to get tired of it and even if the individuals are all mild mannered and retiring nonconfrontational types as a group they have the strength and resolve to stand up to the problem child, and bring about a solution.

So instead of saying bye bye and leaving, I would respectfully suggest you say bye bye and make the offensive individual leave.

...

In a simple world, maybe.

And if you're that intimidating, again, perhaps.

But this is where we meet the real world and this thing called politics.  We also encounter the issue of the longtime troll member[s!] everybody knows and loves [being so well insulated/tolerant due to relationships built up over the years] and the newcomer[s] who doesn't know better and get's in the middle of a mess they didn't see coming.  Or you run into the issue at the head of a major debate/club change and you see the club split into two and take two entirely different directions across town from each other.

There's the days the club spends 20 minutes discussing a minute layout issue [like where the yard limits start], to resolve it with a six month study at the end of which the layout conceptually goes back to the way it was before and the only reason the study was implemented was to show the one person who set things up that there was a specific bureaucratic way things had to be done.  Meanwhile everybody else sits and waits for the heads to agree to let go and move on.

There are some people who adamantly believe there's a single way to do things and it has to be done that exact precise way with no other way being acceptable or even tolerable.  The very worst engineers and modelers alike are those who say "it can't be done, it shouldn't be done, it won't be done, it'll never work, you can't do it like that, that's wrong, your model is bogus," you name it.  Every one of these phrases is a direct short circuit to interest, enthusiasm, progress and above all else, creative work.  But you have these people who are everywhere leveling their idea of how a hobby should be done on everyone around them - this is not a model railroading specific observation...

All of this combined, you have a climate where the newcomer and the outsider alike will happily stay the outsiders or leave one hobby altogether for another where there's fewer personality issues to contend with.  The kids are a brief moment of enthusiasm [for both the young and the old], while the teens are honestly best off taking those bigger plunges into learning the skill sets that are most pertinent to their future careers [computer programming, circuit building [i.e.animation circuits, Ardinos], CAD based planning and such. The young 20s-30s are the college/career years, which means most of them are fully engaged and burdened under school debt, and not especially able to get out and play trains very often.

Our hobby grows most prominently when the people in their 40s-50s decide they want to play trains, whereas these people have the full time employment budgets and the freshest interest that drives both sales and inspiration that benefits all of us.  This is also the age where people have already had 40-50 years of experience that taints their view of humanity as a whole and have fanaticized their positions/opinions in particular on all sorts of things.  Obviously, the generations already in the hobby have their own opinions here as well, which can be good on one hand but off-putting on the other.

The bridge between the generations becomes an increasingly vital part of this picture then, one I dare say starts far before we ever consider the children, with our relationships with our parents and our adult children.

...

In a simple world, maybe.

And if you're that intimidating, again, perhaps.

But this is where we meet the real world and this thing called politics.  We also encounter the issue of the longtime troll member[s!] everybody knows and loves [being so well insulated/tolerant due to relationships built up over the years] and the newcomer[s] who doesn't know better and get's in the middle of a mess they didn't see coming.  Or you run into the issue at the head of a major debate/club change and you see the club split into two and take two entirely different directions across town from each other.

There's the days the club spends 20 minutes discussing a minute layout issue [like where the yard limits start], to resolve it with a six month study at the end of which the layout conceptually goes back to the way it was before and the only reason the study was implemented was to show the one person who set things up that there was a specific bureaucratic way things had to be done.  Meanwhile everybody else sits and waits for the heads to agree to let go and move on.

There are some people who adamantly believe there's a single way to do things and it has to be done that exact precise way with no other way being acceptable or even tolerable.  The very worst engineers and modelers alike are those who say "it can't be done, it shouldn't be done, it won't be done, it'll never work, you can't do it like that, that's wrong, your model is bogus," you name it.  Every one of these phrases is a direct short circuit to interest, enthusiasm, progress and above all else, creative work.  But you have these people who are everywhere leveling their idea of how a hobby should be done on everyone around them - this is not a model railroading specific observation...

All of this combined, you have a climate where the newcomer and the outsider alike will happily stay the outsiders or leave one hobby altogether for another where there's fewer personality issues to contend with.  The kids are a brief moment of enthusiasm [for both the young and the old], while the teens are honestly best off taking those bigger plunges into learning the skill sets that are most pertinent to their future careers [computer programming, circuit building [i.e.animation circuits, Ardinos], CAD based planning and such. The young 20s-30s are the college/career years, which means most of them are fully engaged and burdened under school debt, and not especially able to get out and play trains very often.

Our hobby grows most prominently when the people in their 40s-50s decide they want to play trains, whereas these people have the full time employment budgets and the freshest interest that drives both sales and inspiration that benefits all of us.  This is also the age where people have already had 40-50 years of experience that taints their view of humanity as a whole and have fanaticized their positions/opinions in particular on all sorts of things.  Obviously, the generations already in the hobby have their own opinions here as well, which can be good on one hand but off-putting on the other.

The bridge between the generations becomes an increasingly vital part of this picture then, one I dare say starts far before we ever consider the children, with our relationships with our parents and our adult children.

I said this before and I will

I said this before and I will say it again.  The so called lack of youth in the hobby is nothing new.

I am in my mid 40's. I new 1, count them 1 kid my age that played with trains when we were young.  When I was in college I worked at one of the largest train related hobby shops in the area, and never saw any young people.  We would get a few parents at Christmas but that was it for young folks. 

I have never seen any young folks at the nationals, regionals or division level shows meets and conventions.

My local division holds a yearly show to help teach about the hobby, and I ran that for 9 years and participated or attended it for another 20 years and they get a handful of kids and pretty much no one between 15 and 35 unless they are boy scouts or parents with young kids.  This has been true of this show since day one when I was pretty much the only kid at the fist show the held and it was true of last year's show.

So from what I have seen over the last 35 plus years, is there never really was any young folks in the hobby.  I guess in the fifties you had a huge amount of kids playing with mostly Lionel trains, but back then trains were as high tech as they could get for toys.

By the early 70's that had pretty much ended.  There was one small section of trains at Toys R Us and that went away by the time I was ten or so.  So the so called gen X was never big into trains.  If anything the younger crowed was exposed to trains more because of the popularity of Thomas the Tank Engine.

So I am not sure why we have spent the last thirty years scared for the future of the hobby.  It has been 50 years, half of a century since trains were a common toy for kids to play with.  Get over it.  Kids are NOT the hobby.  They never were the hobby.

And frankly I think we do harm by constantly crying that the hobby is going to die because there are no kids in it.  I mean if I was new in the hobby I would not be inclined to stick around as everywhere I look I am told that the hobby is about to die because there are no young folks.  So why would I want to stay in it?

In the last month I personally have encountered the end is near type comments about the lack of young people on this forum, in the article in this mag, at my local division meeting it was a 20 min crying fest, on a forum dedicated to a prototype railroad, and on another model railroad forum.  Truthfully it has become one of the most  common topics I have seen in the last year or two.  

I wonder if this is perhaps because the NMRA is an aging organization?  Note I said the NMRA not model railroading.  In my personal experience when at an NMRA event I notice those attending have in average been getting older for years.  And let's be honest the NMRA has been doing a good job of chasing anyone young away for decades so the fact that they may be an aging organization is not a surprise, and is more a reflection of there actions then it is a reflection of the hobby as a whole

But at non NMRA events such as prototype meets, railroad specific meets, the national narrow gaumge convention and flee markets that the age of the crowd looks to be pretty much what it has been fir the last 30 or 40 years.

But somehow we have convinced ourselves that there are less young folks today the yesterday and that the hobby is doomed!  If the hobby is in trouble it is for other reasons the a lack of an age group that it has never really had.. So let's stop crying about the lack of youth.  All it does is make the hobby look desperate and the forums and other locations take on a negative depressing tone.  And that is actually likely to turn into a self fullfiling prophecy.  And having had to listen to this same topic for my entire time in the hobby it is enough to make me want to go and play with a computer too.

I am a bit surprised that Joe had this reverse running topic as he has been one of the few people in a position of note that has pointed out in the past that the hobby is doing well and that youth has never been a big active part if the hobby.

-Doug Meyer

It's not just our hobby.

It's not just our hobby.  "Clubs," in general, are all going through similar experiences.  Those of us in the pre-Internet generations found clubs to be a good way to meet people that shared our interests. If the info and fellowship was good enough we put up with the politics and other downsides mentioned by others. Many people called this method of sharing "networking."

The Internet is the network.  Anyone younger than 35 or 40 grew up with it in their pocket.  They don't think of it as a different, optional way to do things.  It's always been there, much like electricity, telephones and television were always part of my life.

The Internet provides much of the upside of clubs without the downsides. If real friendships emerge from online communication (and they often do) that's a plus.  But the process starts online and moves to the real world.

When I watch railroad videos on YouTube I see lots of faces that look 30 and younger.  I don't see those at the local NMRA meeting.

GS

Another point I just thought

Another point I just thought of.  When I was 15 or sixteen I was at a national convention.  At that convention they had a trip to an amusement park.  We had one very large bus full of teenagers, myself included.  Well over half of the kids were boys.  So we are talking at a guess 40 or so kids and 25 or more of them were teenage boys.  You know how many of this group was into trains? 1, me, I was the ONLY kid out of 40 who was interested in trains, and this was at the national train convention.

As far as I can recall there was one other teenaged person that was walking around the convention hall.  That was a girl about my age.  (I wonder why I remember her? ) And I seam to recall that at she we was the daughter of on clinicians and he was a famous modeler.  So I think she MAY have just been going so she could spend time with her dad.  And this was the NMRA 50th convention, so it was one of the best if not the best attended conventions ever.

Three years latter at another national convention I never encountered any teenagers at all other then those working at the food stand.  So like I said young folks have not been an active part of this hobby to any practical degree in over 40 years.

-Doug Meyer

Well, I think the reverse

Well, I think the reverse running has served it's point rather well this month. The contrary view is presented to stir the pot hopefully with a spoon and not a canoe paddle and it seems to be working. In the last year we have had a member join our club that is in his twenties. We have had 2 more guys that are still capable of working for a living based on age stop by and express interest in our club so that is three guys under 60 that just happened by. One of which the youngest became a member. His goal (the young guy) was to learn things. He has been at a fast pace and is progressing nicely. I suspect the youth in the hobby movement is just fear presented by folks that are not ready to do the work Joe does with research and that Doug is correct in many of his thoughts. It is not a question of interest but of time to devote to any hobby.

Video games are often very portable and can be picked up at the drop of a hat and taken some place else so they take very little commitment to get involved with. Some are on the smart phone and in the pocket of the kids. Can't do that with a train. 

One thing I do see though are lots of folks that are younger than me at train shows, there are more my age or older but there are youngsters in attendance. We still are by and large a group of old guys but that is not bad. We just need to continue to attract the guys getting close to retirement that have some income and time to the hobby. That is our bread and butter. The youngsters really need to be the ones that join clubs as the dues are generally small and the layout that is part of the club offers a great deal of potential for the youngsters to learn and to operate the equipment that the smaller budget of time and money allows them to aquire.

2 comments - cost & safety

First, on the subject at hand.  I suspect that teenagers have always been a minority in the hobby, at least in the most visible aspects of it.  Remember that this hobby costs money, which is something most kids have very little of.  Historically, it seems that the most active modelers have been those who have already retired, and who therefore have both the time and money to pursue their hobby to the fullest.

So, if we want to encourage kids to come into the hobby, maybe we need to look at the cost of the models, and encourage a few more inexpensive products?  I know that cost has been discussed many times before, but I think this is one place where it's especially significant.  I may have the option of buying one $100 model or five $20 models, but a kid with $20 does not have that option.  If there are no $20 models, he does not buy anything at all.

Now, I have to say something about the photo used in the column.  As a railroader, I have seen too many cases where people wanted pictures taken on the tracks, sometimes with fatal consequences.  Walking on the tracks is glamorized in stories, photos, videos, etc.  It's not only illegal, it's dangerous, and I think it's irresponsible of a model railroad magazine to use such an image without at least saying "Don't do this!"  While I've publicly stated that I am in favor of common sense and opposed to being a "safety nanny," I feel that does not apply here. When there is a useful and legal material or technique with obvious safety risks, I'm fine with discussing the subject while letting people make their own decision. But there is absolutely no reason to walk on railroad tracks.  Even professional railroaders do not walk in the middle of the track except in very special circumstances.

Yes, but could there be more?

Yes, well-known hobby demographics have shown there's never been many under 40s in the hobby ... But my question here is could there be more youth if us old codgers would change our ways a bit more to be more inclusive in our attitudes? I think the answer is yes.

Model RR hobby demographics studies have shown most in the hobby are male and they get interested in model trains circa 8-12, may be passionate about the hobby through their teens, but lack of resources limits them from doing the hobby in-the-large or traveling to meets, shows, and conventions. How many teen modelers ever have a big layout, for instance? Practically zero - they just can't afford it.

As teen model railroaders approach their 20s, life intervenes in the form of cars, girls, college, the military, starting a family, launching a career ... And most drop out of the hobby or go seriously dormant in their 20s and 30s.

As the kids grow, the older dormant model railroader takes them to a train show for fun and they're reminded of their interest in trains, and may even build the kids a small layout ... Which the parent end up working with more than the kids.

Sometime between when the kids leave home and retirement, these dormant model railroaders may return to the hobby because the career's well in hand, the kids are through college and they now have the time and resources to do the hobby in the large and to travel to meets, shows, and conventions.

In every era, the ones really pursuing the hobby big time are mostly older men in their 40s or older, as the above demographic shows.

But my contention in this month's Reverse Running is that we'd have more youth interested in model trains at the young end of this demographic if we'd change our ways a bit ... And as a consequence in 40 years the influx of dormant modelers returning to the hobby will then be greater.

"I don't have any answers to

   The purpose of a hobby is to forget about all these kinds of problems. If you bring them along for the ride your hobby journey is not gonna be much fun. If modelrailroading can't provide an escape perhaps you should try something else? Things like mountain climbing, or running, or windsurfing eliminate all the middle men and just leave you and the elements to work it out.....DaveB 

Excellent point

I think you have an excellent point, Joe.  We're probably all guilty of being resistant to change. The question is, how do we incorporate new technology and new ways of doing things without ruining the hobby for those who already have it just the way they like it?  And how do we avoid incorporating things younger people like just because they're popular, and not because they're better?  Justin Bieber may be popular, but you're going to have a hard time convincing me he's better than Beethoven.  We have to be careful that we don't turn our hobby into a kid's world, and drive the adults out.  Surely there's a balance to be struck.

 And how do we avoid

The balance is attitude, which is what the OP is getting at. It isn't by default BAD to let someone know what they are doing isn't acceptable for your club layout, isn't prototypical, etc.  It is how it is delivered that makes it bad and harmful to future modelers.

Right now there are several topics discussing different things about the hobby in which a person or two is saying "That is wrong. Don't do it, do this instead". One of those topics is in regards to someone trying to make the layout more friendly two longer-wheelbase steamers when they absolutely do NOT have the room to "do it right".  And yet the response is that if you can't do it right, don't do it.

How discouraging is it for a beginner, or even an older modeler, to be told something like that? That their dreams, ideals and desires aren't good enough or even acceptable? Especially when they are trying to be helpful to other modelers that may be in the same position as they are? Being told "It isn't right, don't do it" is no different than saying "That circle isn't a real railroad, don't build it". It will keep new and younger blood out of the hobby in any organized fashion.

Completely different is letting them know it isn't acceptable on the club layout because of various factors where it could impact the enjoyment of others also. In that case steering them towards more acceptable solutions FOR THAT ENVIRONMENT is expected and helps the member grow and advance.  Helping them understand why and give them a constructive direction for their desires goes a long way.  Belittling, judging and talking down to them drives them away.

FYI- No I am not in a club.  I don't have the time but I also don't want to deal with the politics and attitudes. I've been in too many groups over the years to fight with yet another one.  And our local club has a reputation....

Kevin

...

Maybe we need to re-evaluate the marketing pitch...

We're all well aware of the demographics, whereas the old people are leaving faster then the young people are replacing them, thus leaving a smaller population in the hobby and organizations like the NMRA experiencing issues with a graying/All graygone membership...

The answer, from what so many articles suggest, is that we need to get more YOUNG people [kids and teens] involved with the hobby...

And yet we know the demographics show the best growth [they have capital, space, time, etc.] segment is achieved when we add more people who are in their 30, 40 and 50s...

Why then is "the hobby" so interested in recruiting the children instead of recruiting the prime segment?  Why does "the hobby" forsake their children's generation in favor of their grandchildren's generation?

Hold on a second: Define YOUNG PEOPLE!

I can see how the grandchildren can be appealing.  For example, come elections time, they're too young to know how to run a campaign or have the support to take a prominent position within the club.  And they're a lot less likely to talk back or contend a point on the layout - they'll take the crayon box and color just they way they're told to color.  There's no threats to the power structures, and there's no one coming for the reins.

Of course, looking at it from the other point of view, their ideas could be on a level and in a direction the established club does not wish to go, and for a couple newcomers to come into a club and change it all is disheartening for anyone who has been involved with it for years and seen it grow into what it has become.

If you thank about it as a

If you thank about it as a math problem.   For simplicity sake, I will assume a spread in age of 1 to 90 as the lifespan of a railroader.  That being said anyone over 30 is hard to tell from 40-45 so we will call 30 are cut off for young.  If that is the case at BEST you will get 1 person out of 3 as young and that is for the hobby as a whole.

Add in that teens have other things to keep them busy ( like girls and school and sports)  And other things to do with there very limited money (like gas, dates, sports and computers) and you will see less of them in the hobby

So the mat says 1 in 9 hobbyists would be teens, but if your lucky half of those or less would actually have time or interest to stay active.  So that cuts us to 1 in 18.  Call it one in twenty fir the sake of easy numbers.

For twenty somethings every thing said for teens holds true.  But is worse, and on top of that we ad in college, starting a career, and starting a family.  So that we are lucky if 25% of those that may be I interested in trains have the time and money.  So what should be 1 in 9 is more like 1 in 36, so let's call that 1 in 40

For thirty to fourth year olds lest say the are twice as active as the twenty to thirty crowed and we are talking 1 in 20

So for every 100 potential modelers we have the following.

Under 10, really does not count, but is at best 10 total

Teens bring 5 to the party.

20 year olds bring 2.3

Thirty brings in 5

So you may see 12 to 13 folks below 40, but above 11.  Now if you look at those 40 and up your going to have give or take 60 

If you want to say that the older set is overall twice as likely to attend a convention the we are talking 5 vs 120

And frankly I think I am being generous.

So the young folks are statistically irrelevant in the hobby.  And remember I was one and stayed active durring this time so it is not like I have a problem with them.  It is just the cold hard truth that as far as this hobby goes they didn't be for, don't currently, and odds are won't in the future matter. As far as being active in the hobby.

And the continued hand wringing is not going to ever change this fact.  If anything it is going to hurt as it make the hobby look bad and a lot of folks point to this to say the hobby is dying.  And the younger crowed who lives on the net are going to look at all the comments about how few young people are in the hobby and that is going to send them elsewhere looking for folks there age.

I know my numbers are made up, but I think you get the point and I bet if anything even though I simplified the numbers I a most likely high with my guess of how many 30 and under types are active in the hobby.

By the way I was 14 or so at my first regional convention and I found I was in general more then welcomed by most if the folks there.  This was true of almost every I met in the hobby.  And the few that were a little less friendly usually came around when they realized I was serious about the hobby and not just playing with trains.

So frankly I don't think that we do not need to keep worrying about the young folks in the hobby.  Or the lack of them.  

How about letting nature take its course and we get back to actually modeling.  I figure the best way we can attract new modelers is to show them what thus hobby is about. And that is modeling, and trains.  Not worrying if we have enough young folks involved today.  If we show them a bright shiney fun hobby then some of them will stick around and others will come back when they are older and have more time.  But if we show them a bunch of folks crying about the future of the hobby and how things were better in the past they will only remember the negative and they will be less likely to stay now or return in the future.

The best way to influence the young is to show them a good example and to have fun.  If they see somthing they like and that we are having fun those so inclined will want to join us.  And those that are not inclined towards the hobby we will never be able to attract no matter what we do. 

So I say have fun, forget worrying about the young folks and the future and just enjoy the hobby.  We are in the best time ever to be in this hobby, we should enjoy it. And that is the best advertising that the hobby will ever get.  Crying about how things have changed (that we can not change back) is about the worst thing we can do for the hobby. 

So go model something, have fun doing it and be a good advertisement for the hobby.

-Doug y

"Maybe we need to re-evaluate

  In reality we need to eliminate any marketing pitch.  It's not a matter of club politics or social media it's a matter of kids being interested in trains  enough to want to become modelers. If they want to become hobbyists they'll do it naturally on their own terms and how we've done it in the past won't matter to the next generation. If they don't have this natural reason to become modelers then they should look for something else that can provide them with the same satisfaction that modeling has given the older generations. I'm not a kid but I could be hooked by today's railroad scene just as much as I was hooked by the 50's scene. If today's kids can't feel that pull then the hobby is not for them........DaveB

...

Doug, I think your numbers even if hypothetical are good but...your conclusion, like Dave's...We're still so focused on the kids part that we're missing the main goal here towards this membership drive in the first place...

The issue here is that there's more people leaving the hobby then joining, which means there's fewer people supporting the organizations that support our hobby.  What more, because those organizations are not experiencing membership revitalization due to an influx of new young blood, they're running the risk of becoming stagnant or out of touch with the "future," thus becoming irrelevant altogether.

Over and over and over we say Young People and everybody automatically assumes KIDS.

What if instead of thinking Kids, we thought "People who are 30-45?"

They are the Young People Joe is looking for, the people who have everything necessary to be serious about being in the hobby, with the resources available to be in these organizations at an effective level.  If this segment of the hobby is growing at a slower rate than the 70-100 crowd is leaving, then that is a rather important issue...

And if we think, "Young People are 30-45," how would that influence our "entry level" articles?

Kevin

Kevin great point and I agree with your assessment.

In looking at your post those are the things that we do not do at our club. Instead of telling someone they are not good enough or what ever we as a group show them how to be good enough or ways to be better than what they are. We have a wide group in our club when it comes to experience and skill and actually have at least two guys relatively new to the hobby who joined to learn how to do things. They are learning and doing and when they hit a snag one of us that is familiar with what ever is stumping them chips in to help.

Their respective interests are very different but both are somewhat broad in their selection of the things they like to model. One guy would fit in with the pure fantasy crowd that was discussed on here a while back and the other is just now getting his trains to run slower than what I call Lionel speed, in reference to the tin plate and high speed units I remember from the train shows. Neither of them is made fun of or attacked for their choice of venue. If they choose to talk about it and want to discuss it with any of us we talk about what their vision of a railroad is not one we would like better.

I am sorry you ran into one of those groups that seems to maintain a power struggle for everything and that it has soured you on clubs as you seem like a guy that would be a real asset to a club.

As a way to eliminate telling them something is not good enough or what ever it is easier to show them what is good enough and at least one way of accomplishing the desired result. For example if we were going to begin putting trees on the layout before sending someone with no experience out to do it we would show them how to make trees and how to plant them in a suitable manner. Same with track work or any other aspect of the building and maintaining of the layout.

In short we have I think a unique bunch that is like family, we do tease the daylights out of each other from time to time but it is in fun and everyone knows it. When knew folks join they are adopted into the fold and treated as part of the family not the new folks or outsiders.

Wish There Was More Hard Data

This subject comes up often and never seems to be brought to a conclusion. Perhaps it could be better considered if there was real data as to average age in the hobby, length of time in the hobby, age at entry into it, age when first attracted, current interest amounts within age groups, etc. Is there even any reliable estimates as to the number of participants? And similar information for earlier years? It's unreliable to take personal experience as representative. If I went by my own experience I'd say the hobby is healthy in my metro area. I can think of at least seven hobby shops dealing in trains around town as well as four club layouts, not counting the modular guys and round robin groups. At the last NMRA regional there were three layout tours literally within easy walking distance of my house and many dozens around the city. At least four of them have been in the big mags.There are at least a dozen swap meets a year, most very popular. I used to give modeling courses for community education that drew pretty well.

So I could say the hobby looks strong. But then I hear folks talking about an absence of hobby shops, swap meets and local modelers. Or if there are clubs such organizations often are unhappy places to hang out. Who wants to be around jerks ? (Amazing how many fewer stiffs I encounter when I quit going to bars). 

Seems like there's two extremes to this discussion, those who think the hobby's in unprecedented good shape and those who believe the hobby's in decline if not actually ready to roll over. I don't think either is really correct, but again that's my view without good data available.

As far as the inter-generational thing goes, sounds like good territory for a sociologist. Again, speaking for myself, I have a collage age daughter and I have no problem relating with her cohorts and her. Actually most of them have a great curiosity about about things in the past and seem amazed that I seem to know more about Current events today than they do. I think s lot of that has to do with how a person communicates. Truly, it's not so much what you say as how you say it (within reason). Some people prefer the Internet to actual physical exchanges , and sometimes that makes sense, but it's good to learn how to deal with all types at the personal level. We're all going to encounter people we'd rather not. Can't be avoided. Happens in the service, employment, churchs , on the street, parties, all over. It's really too bad when that happens are the railroad club or hobby shop or railfan meet.

That's a subject we've all encountered, the undesirerables who nitpick, pontificate, flaunt their "expertise", assume the role of the elitist main man etc. We all know that routine and could write a good sized magazine article about it. My own favorite was the guy who was touring my old layout and boldly informed me that the  Susquehanna  & Lake Erie never used AS616's. Since the S&LE was my own free lanced road I thought his remark was rather out of place.

At any rate, if anyone has some information as to hard numbers of modelers, or if such info even exists, please let us know. 

Barry P.

 "I'd say the hobby is

Where is this model railroading version of heaven? If every modeler  I know of in the county got together we might muster up a club of 10 or so ,and the nearest train shop is 40 miles away :> ) ......DaveB 

Being one who is....

...a technology freak and usually an early adopter I can agree with many points in this editorial.  Model Rails generally don't like change. Neither do my ham radio friends either. In fact I'd dare say that of the three hobbies I'm involved in, the RC group seems more open to change than anyone. I think that's why they have made the huge advance in battery technology and control systems they have in the past few years.

All that being said, and with all due respect to Joe,  I think this worrying over youth in the hobby is all "much ado about nothing." The other two hobbies I've just listed above plus Model Railroading all seem to have the same lament about not attracting enough youth to the hobby. That lament has been going on for years too and somehow, the hobbies keep surviving. I don't know how, maybe it's the 30 and 40 something crowd taking the time to do stuff they couldn't afford do as kids. Bottom line though, the hobbies are surviving and some are arguably "thriving".

Michael

I doubt

I doubt the anti-change members here have succeed in keeping anyone out of the hobby. They haven't even succeeded in preventing change.

I spent a couple of years lurking here (and on other forums) before deciding to get involved again. I saw flame wars, recurring arguments about matters of personal taste, and curmudgeonly griping about what the hobby was coming to. In short, the same things seen on any forum devoted to any topic. I had no lack of options for what to do with my time after retirement, yet here I am. What I mostly saw was a hobby that can be enjoyed a lot of ways  by people with a wide variety of skills. I saw people with giant empires and people who build layouts that fit a shoebox. I saw machinists with CNC shops and people who build with paper, people who buy everything ready to run and people who improvise from household items. I saw people who emulate every aspect of railroad operations right down to union negotiations and people who sip beverages while their trains run in circles.

The common aspect of model railroading, and the feature that attracted me the most is that it is a hands on activity. My employment had been a mix of computer work and hand work that I found ideal. Computer activities of course continue. Model railroading is a perfect way for me to keep working with my hands and learn some new skills.

I think my experience could be generalized to attract new hobbyists from the pool of 40 somethings identified as the best target demographic  in the previous posts. Since so many of those folks complain about spending their days in front of a computer, maybe they could be shown how model railroading can bring balance into their life. It's not a matter of recruiting people, simply letting our friends know how much enjoyment we get from modeling should do the trick. If each of us inspired just one other person to get involved, our worries about the hobby dying out would vanish.

pqe