"Horses for Courses" =/= "Covers all Conditions" Best Practise

Dear MRHers,

Charlie's advice/experience here "fits" a specific set of conditions and situation.

(Read between the lines: Charlie has 
- performed an appropriate level of problem analysis for his specific scale and conditions,
- worked out the critical elements and interactions,
- has built his layout to suit those givens/conditions,
and is having to strenously work to avoid any "exceptions" creeping into the "perfectly configured system").

It is not, and should not be construed as 
​"best/most-reliable practise for any/all layout/scale/gauge/loco/track-array/control-system conditions".
(IE a reliable layout config which will handle any/all "exceptional" conditions thrown at it,
along with ultra-reliable "normal operating conditions" performance).
 

Any furthur comment can and has been covered by the following recent threads

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/13901

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/18826

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS I must ask, at least for my own morbid curiosity, 
how many here do genuinely/deliberately run-thru turnouts not-set for the train/direction of travel?

Even with an "intelligent"/automatic frog-switching solution, or dead-frog config,
running against a turnout will likely lead to an even-more-significant short condition,
_and_ an inevitable physical derailment... (with potential associated physical damage to the equipment!!!).

On the prototype, such a cavallier attitude to turnout-direction-VS-train-movement is virtually guaranteed to earn the traincrew an unpaid-vacation with no guarantee of employment on return...
(and if we're talking about a brass model loco consist, 
the consequences of a similar transgression in model form may not be all that dis-similar!)

Look and Check First, Then Throttle Up...
(words to live by)

About time

Thanks for saying what I've always wanted to say Charlie. Powering frogs equals wasted time, assuming typical diesels and all that. I also use Micro Engineering Number 6 turnouts and rarely, if ever have an issue. Athearn Genesis Geep 9's being one exception. They will eventually get ST Current Keepers and problem solved. For the rest of the Allagash fleet, it's smooth sailing over dead frogs.

Mike Confalone

Live frogs for me

Nothing makes more sense than simplifying wiring by ignoring frog wiring when locomotive and track conditions allow. Just like detailing the back side of a building that will be positioned against the backdrop anyway, saving precious modeling time and resources makes sense - most of us have railroads to build.

Depending on what you run, this could be a disastrous approach, however. My short locomotives and critters need live frogs to perform well. While most of my fleet have keep alive capacitors, I don't rely on them to get over dead frogs...they are to mitigate the potential for occasional dropouts from dirty track or wheels. The minimal wiring is rewarded with reliable, smooth slow speed performance for my On30 locos.

Everything you build should reflect your layout's theme, and support its execution. Powering frogs makes sense if you run (or may in the future run) short-wheelbase equipment. Otherwise, it's time and $$$ better spent elsewhere!

"Powering frogs equals wasted time, ..."

... but, not powering the frogs DOES LIMIT one's options.  Some (like Charlie and Mke C above) may choose to NEVER operate any equipment that won't run on their given track work because of the isolated (dead) frogs; of course the reverse is also true, in that their choice has resulted in some equipment that can't be operated on their layouts without extensive modification.  It then becomes a question of whether they don't run certain equipment because they don't want to run it?  Or because they can't!*  

*[I am certain that both of them are knowledgeable enough to fully understand the impact of their choices ... but, that may not be true for the general reader of MRH, who will see this as an unnecessary effort only to have to explain to the grand-child why their little switcher won't run on grandpa's train tracks ...]

I suppose in the flavor of the NMRA standards and recommended practices, one could say dead frogs are "neither prohibited nor recommended" ... but one should be certain of their commitment to the decision if they chose to join the dead frog society ... it is much more labor intensive to power the frogs (allowing operation of all equipment) after they have been installed.

I like the idea of powered

I like the idea of powered frogs, for the same reasons Dave mentioned above. In many cases it costs very little to do so. It is particularly easy with many types of switch machines as they can handle the power routing for you. It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

A 'N'ecessity

Thanks Charlie

No limitations for me

Modeling the early 1980s, I run exclusively 4-axle diesels. There's nothing out there that I would run but "can't" because I use dead frogs.

Never had a problem with them. No need for powering frogs, powering switches and all that excess in my situation. Slap the turnouts down, solder the joiners to the flex track, add feeders every few sections of track (no need for every piece of flex), and I'm running trains. 

Some folks need the frogs powered because of the equipment they run. But for most guys/gals operating in the diesel era, it's just not necessary. I agree 100% with Charlie.

Mike Confalone

Bremner

I run "modern" N scale, but I

I run "modern" N scale, but I have a penchant for extremes. I pull a long double stack with 2 DD40s,  but I'll also run a scale car transfer with a bobber caboose and 44 tonner or 3 axle switcher.

If you're locked in and and don't anticipate any changes in rolling stock ever, fine, go with dead frogs. I on the other hand run a wide variety of equipment from different eras on the tracks of a railroad that had as one of it's founding principles "never scrap a running locomotive". Yes, you'll find an occasional 0-4-0T working an industry, as the SD90s lead a mainline freight past. It's the "heritage" idea on steroids - my heritage fleet is still in revenue service. Add that to the fact I use Atlas Code 55 rail, nothing less than a #7 turnout...  well, dead frogs just aren't an option. Nothing quite like the sight of an 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 drifting slowly through a turnout. The Atlas Code 55 track makes it so easy to wire the frog that it's just silly not to. I use DPDT slide switches as manual throws, and also to change the frog polarity AND dwarf signal position indicators.

So, my situation is almost 180 opposite from Charlie's. Where he assumes stability and an unchanging roster, I emphasize flexibility and the possibility of running absolutely anything. It's no surprise we came to different conclusions on powering frogs.

we gave up our membership

Hybrid

I've chosen to dead frogs on #6 or lower turnouts (though I only have #6's currently), but on anything larger, I've chosen to go with frog juicers just in case.  But most of my switches will be #6, so it will mostly be dead frogs.  No issues to this point.

I have to ask, though, Jurgen, have you re-tested the stalls since you started using graphite on the rails?

I agree

One dead frog by mistake but...

I have recently completed the laying of track on my layout. I used Peco Code 83 electrofrogs throughout. I carefully wired the switch rails to the running rails and powered the frogs using Frog Juicers (total cost for the juicers - £110 = $182.00. I then needed one extra turnout for some staging. When installing it, I was looking for the wire that Peco fits to the frog and couldn't get it out. It turned out that I had bought an insulfrog turnout. I hooked up the switch/running rails and went with it. I have 2 x Bachmann 2-6-0 DCC/Sound locos. So far, I can see no difference when the locos go through the insulfrog than when they go through the powered ones. Unfortunately, I have already purchased a third Frog Juicer (see my previous post about electrical issues due to my stupidity!) so I won't save anything when I build the next extension to the layout but I will keep my counsel until my expected Bachmann 0-6-0 switcher comes out of customs and see how that runs before I make any final decision.

I'll know in a couple weeks

We are about to start up operations again after taking the summer off for building.  I know we have some sawdust etc. on the rails at this point, so we will be running a cleaning car over everything likely to be dirty before we fire things up.  In the midst of some test running some units picked up a lot of dirt on their wheels, so we have to attend to that before we can know how the graphite is faring for certain.  I'll let you know in a couple weeks.

...

I don't understand why anything but power routing frogs would be used.  Yes, if you enter the switch without throwing it in the right direction, you short out the whole section, but you SHOULD receive some sort of punishment for your blatant disregard for operational safety, ahem, I mean, there's no excuse for running a switch except for simply negligence on the part of the operator.  The switch will do Exactly what it's supposed to - which means sometimes human operators also have to do their part to ensure reliable operability....

I use 1156 bulbs with power

I use 1156 bulbs with power routing turnouts. In Nscale No problems here.

...there's no excuse for

Ever heard of "spring" switches? 

-George

...

Then you wire the section so that a short in the oncoming route [in the 12" section before the turnout] automatically throws the turnout...Boom, Spring Switches... 

Minor spelling problem ...

... in the sixth paragraph:

should be micro-switches.

P.S. I have always liked the idea of powered "electrofrogs" and did use the Peco electrofrog many years ago (they are now in the dump). For economy, I invested in a large number of plastic (yes, commercial) switches for my current layout, but, after problems running my Plymouth MDT switcher, wished I had used powered frogs. I am sure my F9s would work better as well, but are not quite so sensitive. I can (almost) live with the Plymouth MDT after careful adjustment to the play and alignment of the trucks.

Dead Frog Society

Sign me up as a 100% member of the society. I have been an advocate of the dead frog for many years. All my turnouts have dead frogs (sorry Kermit) both HO and HOn30" and have been for 14 years.

http://www.nmra.org.au/gndu/index.html

and

http://www.nmra.org.au/Hints/Turnout_Tips/Turnout_Tips.html

Gerry

Hey....

I take it that some readers have vehemently opposed views on dead frogs.

I knew that when I wrote the Reverse Running.

But before you get out the tar and feathers (you'll have to catch me first and if you do then who will do the clinics for the Portland 2015 National Convention?), please pause and reread the reverse running.

Yes, I did point out that small motive and dead frogs are not a good mix (unless you use battery power).

Yes, I did point out that if you'll be experimenting with different sizes/styles of locos you might not want the dead frogs everywhere (whether or not they're named Kermit).

Yes, you're not supposed to run a turnout going the wrong direction. But isn't it a lot more prototypical to have equipment pile up on the ties instead of just stopping dead (along with everything else in the power district)? And yes, a good pile up often does stop everything else in the power district, too. Think of it as an RFF multiplier (Red Face Factor).

And of course, nobody ever expresses an contrarian/controversial opinion in a Reverse Running article.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled browsing.

Charlie (Horace made me do it) Comstock

Reminder - look at the picture

On Reverse Running, we remind you to look at the photo. We generally try to put an over-the-top silly image on RR to remind you to take this column with a grain of salt before you get out the tar and feathers.

There will be some truth in this column or it wouldn't be effective. But there will generally be a little to a lot of contrarian rhetoric to go with it.

No tar and feathers. No dead frogs either.

Column says dead frogs but is titled reverse running. A negative multiplied by a negative is a positive. According to Charlie I am on the right track with powered frogs! Made sense to me.