Again,  an idea that looks like it should be workable.  Ben has included a lot of his budget to tools that previous submissions have assumed as available ... so some room for upgrades or coming in 'under budget' for those who have access to those items.  I see a lot of potential here (reminds me a lot of Scott Perry's HOG).  Well done, and congratulations on a fine entry.

...

I dare say the Proof is in the pudding!

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/desert-grande-layout-planning-stages-12191800

I actually went and built the thing to make sure my theory was not just a hypothesis.  I dare say the practice is sound, but there is one assumption I make that would be detrimental in some cases: I assume you CAN drill into the walls.  If it was masonry, this story changes dramatically.

The Editors provided a flatland example that could be built using this plan, and I agree that a flat land layout would be very easy to do here.  My goal, though, is a layout that is expandable both up and down.

The sheets of foam are only $16 a piece. The shelves cost nearly nothing to move up and down the wall, so by lowering the shelves, one can add great depth where it's desired.

Here's the "flat land" part of my layout, the upper layer similar to the Milwaukee suggestion, if you were to ignore the 8" of foam beneath it!

 Here's a good example where going up is the goal.  I put a second line at that higher altitude, but it would be just as well if this were a bluff, with the lower railroad "going off around the bend into a tunnel" and the upper grade was just hills. The total increase in elevation to the top of the hill is 9" from the base plane.

And finally, here is what you can do full hog!  Yes, that's HO, not N!  That's a full ten inches of depth from the top of the shelving to the main standard gauge grade!  Where the automobiles are is meant to be a narrow gauge line, but I never got around to it...and that's OK, because the club layout is a better use of my effort at this moment in my life!!

The shelving in the corner under the mountain demonstrates how the shelving can be set at different heights so as to save foam:

So there's the full Monty on what CAN be done using my theory.

Yes, my bedroom layout uses more than $500 and has the benefit of my collection providing details like buildings, locomotives and rolling stock.  But I do believe I left enough budget to at the very least get started, even if it is what we old farts think is a ridiculous dinky toyish set like the Bachmann Challenger [engine, two cars and a caboose] or Lifelike's Rail Charger [engine, two cars and a caboose] sets.  But that's besides the point.

The real point here is, I got you 46 square feet of model railroading real estate [50 when you count the bridges, if they were sceniced] out of that $500.  [G layout: 13.5 square feet; 1st layout: 32 square feet; 2nd layout: 8 square feet [or about 32 in HO]  If there's any one thing we always cry about, it's "Oh, if only I had a little more space!!"  My goal was to give it, in spades!!  And without any tools save a power drill and a hand saw!

Second limiting factor, I wanted trains to be able to run for as long as they could before they had to stop.  Here, there is roughly 40 linear feet of running mainline before it terminates or repeat, which means there's no less than 10 different 3 foot scenes that can be done on this layout. 

Finally, and this one hits the 4x8 hard, I wanted to provide the WIDEST minimum radius you could imagine within this space.  My layout plan is almost a bit miserly, whereas I only allocated the 36" radius, which is a very generous curve indeed!  BUT, if one wanted to go wider, for oh, say, O scale, [I could easily imagine a 40" curve on this setup] they could!

What more, the room is still fully functional as a bedroom/guest bedroom, as I still use mine this way.  If you have a spouse, I understand that this is not an option, but there IS always that second or third bedroom...

I felt it was highly inappropriate to pick either time, place or subject for my beginner, seeing as how I do believe every beginner has their own idea already of what they want to see.  I further didn't want to discourage them when they try to go model the Obscure and Southwestern only to discover their Scale Prototypically correct stock for their interests costs twice over what the budget is for this project alone.  For someone just starting out, I find narrow pursuits to be limiting, because in that moment even an old Tyco car or a flashy SF war bonnet [that at least RUNS!! when power is applied] is worthy railroad fodder. 

So I put up this, as the cauldron from which in a couple years a beginner could very well produce a very nice prototype railroad with a specific time and place and all that other fancy stuff that gets the "professional" model railroader all excited inside.  For now, though, the focus is on fun!

This is Benny's Layout of Endless Opportunity!

Good reading

EPS bead foam

Great information Benny, thanks for sharing this. I am curious about how well the beaded styrofoam with the very thin plastic veneer is working out for you. This is what is available to me at my local Home Depot and I am considering using some. I recall seeing some of this glued overhead once that the plastic veneer had let go from the foam and it fell. Have you had any issues with the plastic sheet losing it's grip?

...

I remove the plastic veneer right off the bat, at least form the layers where they touch the next layer.  It's a messy process, but I can't have it fouling up my white glue!!

There is one "cool" thing about this foam: if you put two layers together with white glue, come back in a week and pull them apart, the glue around the edges will be cured but the glue in the middle will be as wet as when you put it down.  Yes, it can get that airtight!

The BIGGEST concern with white bead board is the flammability.  Once it starts burning, it will burn until you put it out.  But then, so will Paper, cardboard and wood - and I don't see anybody not building a layout out of those items any time soon.  So don't go planning on lighting your layout on fire!!  And keep your wiring clean, because bad wiring is your own damn fault if you let it happen!  I'd not pin the bus wire right to the bottom of the foam, I'd use cleats to hold it, thus insolating it from the foam.  Where your wire has insulation, there'll be no issue threading it through the foam.  I have a 1/4" x 9" drill bit on hand when I need to make long drives.

The vacuum works very well for cleanup.  I've only used this stuff for 10 years now, it haven't given me an issue yet.  Once you have the upper scenery layers put down, it's just a support structure that you can carve out if you need to.

I have used a soldering iron to carve my white bard before, I just took the weller iron and sank it all the way up to the vent holes but not beyond the vent holes.  My first iron form years ago has been my only casualty, about a couple months into cutting foam [I used to do it on the outside balcony, those fumes are NASTY] I let those vent holes get filled until finally something within the iron sparked and the iron itself shot flames out of the vent holes. and burned up the melted Styroafoam as it was coating the rest of the iron.  I simply blew it out and it was gone as one might blow out a birthday candle.. 

These days I prefer using the snap off utility knife, just don't snap off the blade and you have a 4 inch razor knife that is a dream for working thick foam boards.  Do exercise caution using it, because I reckon it would hurt if you caught yourself!

0-4-0 Steam Climax

I mentioned an 0-4-0 climax, and to my delight I found some images online of a couple 0-4-0 steam solutions that would work well in On30 using the Trolley base

Bachmann does make a Davenport with siderods and it's available down around the 60-70 range, if once found one for 50, it would be a GREAT starting point to kitbash some small 0-4-0 geared steam!!

This last one uses Backwood Minature's retro kit to convert the Bachmann diesel.  If one had only time, though, the whole things could be scratchbuilt with things found here and there.

Foam

Thanks for sharing your experience about dealing with that thin plastic sheet Benny. One thing I would add is that if this is the same foam sold at the Home Depot here (and it sure looks like it) it is actually flame resistant. The old type of EPS foam was indeed a one match blaze, but this new stuff will not spread a flame. About 10 years ago when I first saw and used this newer stuff, they had signs proclaiming it as "flame resistant", and I was not so sure about that, so I actually took a torch to a little piece, and sure enough, it will not burn. That is, the flame will not spread across the sheet on it's own, it will go out. If you melt it down to a puddle, the little puddle will burn, but just barely. They use some gas that is a flame retardant (Argon??) to blow the beads, so when a fire starts, each bursting bead releases an extinguishing agent. Pretty neat.

I have always been concerned about using foam, probably since I saw (on This Old House I think) a test where they took a 1 foot square piece of "Isoboard" (Polyisocyanurate foam -the yellow stuff, usually with foil) and burned it in a test room. That stuff burns like rocket fuel, and of course the "cyan" part of the formula is cyanide, and a 1 sq foot piece released enough cyanide gas to kill everybody in that room in about 30 seconds. I have not seen "Isoboard" for sale anywhere in quite a while.

As an aside: I was working framing homes in Boulder, CO about 25 years ago, and this particular development was one of the first "Green" developments (per the criminal UN agenda 21 protocols) and these homes were sheathed with Isoboard due to its miraculous insulating properties. NO plywood at all. All strap and foam, even the corners.  This of course was stupid on several levels. But, "the customer is always right", right? Putting hardboard lap siding on top of foam is a royal PITA, gun nails want to punch it in at every stud and you end up with something resembling a lasagna noodle. We had just finished sheathing a pretty big one (at least 4,000 sq ft) and one of those gnarly front range storms was coming in over the Flatirons. That evening when it hit, I watched the news as they showed semi trailers flipped over and such, and knew that house would be a mess. When I got to the job in the morning I could not believe just how thoroughly that house had been trashed. EVERY piece of sheathing had been torn to shreds, and the foil with shards of foam still attached to the framing was all blowing in the wind like some sort of crazy tinsel. Took a couple days to strip all of that mess off, and we put that same garbage on again.....

$500 Layout

Nice job with a realistic attempt to meet a very frugal goal! I would pick a few nits, however, for anyone considering this or any other layout:

1. 3 doors into an 11' x 11' room is most unusual. Admittedly, the number of doors depends on the relationship between the room and the rest of the house, but as an architect, I would studiously avoid such a wasteful plan.

2. Assuming benchwork must support 50#/sf is an excessive criterion. As a comparison, most floors in homes are designed for only 40#/sf loading unless there is a most unusual load in a particular spot.

3. The price impact is miniscule, but brass screws are unnecessary.

4. Do not depend on simple wall anchors in drywall to support your shelves (especially if you believe you have to support 50#/sf). Secure your shelf brackets to the studs and be safe.

Dante

...

1) Three doors one room is one reason I decided to rent this apartment, but it's a very common feature on one bedroom apartments featuring a walk-in closet.  Door one is the entry way, door two is the bathroom [masterbath], and door three is a walk in closet.  Your architects insist on these sliding door closets, which are half the size of my walk-in closet and have two sliding doors each more expensive than the single door on my walk-in closet - give me a good walk-in any day!

2) It is better to start with a bracket that can support 50 lbs and build a layout that is only 10 lbs, versus starting with brackets that are 10 lbs and building a layout that is 20 lbs.  As it is, the brackets I chose were $3.00 each right of the bat.

3) Tell me, without screws, how will I put my shelving into the walls?  Of course, the wall anchors come with screws, but those sets are relatively very expensive versus the box of brass screws.  So I start with a brass screw and go hunting for studs.

4) Some are in studs, some are not.  If I didn't hit a stud with a brass screw, I put in a wall anchor - it took all the guesswork out of searching for studs. There's three screws per bracket, and I anticipate at most 20-30 lbs per shelf.  That comes out to 5 lbs per screw, vertically.  I haven't had an issue and it's been up for a year now.

Reply to Reply

Benny,

1) There are ways-depending on the overall plan-to avoid 3 doors into 1 relatively small room and still provide you with a master bath and a walk-in closet. Or a master bath and a non-walk-in closet that doesn't use bedroom wall space. (Walk-ins usually use more floor space for equivalent storage but save wall space.)

2) All I said is that folks should be aware that 50#/sf is excessive and unrealistic. Even 20#/sf for a layout is excessive unless, perhaps, your mountains are solid plaster!

3) I didn't say that you should do without screws, simply that you do not need brass screws.

4) I am glad you have had no failures of wall anchors, but securing to studs (usually spaced at regular intervals) is safer. (Don't ask me how I know!) And you said you bought a stud finder, did you not? No guesswork there.

I really do appreciate what you have done with the room you have and wish you the best going forward

Dante

...

Having had both, give me doors.  Whatever they taught you in design school in regards to doors, throw it out.  They're lovely.  This complex has about 320 apartments with layout, I'm sure they save a ton of money with the one walk-in closet door versus sliding or four-fold closet doors. 

My apartment in college was very similar - two doors on the bedroom [one entry from the hall, one walk-in closet] and two doors on the bathroom [one entry from the hall, an additional door separating the toilet from the sinks in the bathroom.  We like our doors here...The space behind the Walk-in closet door is perfect for a bookshelf...or a staging yard...

The closet situation indeed invites a problem if you have such a long span, but it can be managed.  At my uncle's, my bedroom end wall was a closet, but I first put a tall dresser towards one wall, and then bridged the layout right across the room.  And like that, it stayed until I demolished it.  Yes, it was supposed to be a removable section, but in the end, that was not in the cards!

So give me a walk-in closet every single time.  They're AMAZING - Especially if they're about 6-8 feet wide, then they're Perfect.  I lose maybe the 2-3 feet by the length of the closet to the walkway, but I lose three feet in front of any wall closet.  What more, this means you have more wall space in the room itself and a your closet is physically twice as big[if there's two sides] as what it would be if it was a wall closet. 

If I ever design a house, it will have walk-in closets, at a minimum of 7-8 feet wide.  They may really good rooms for staging yards and helix!!

The difference between a box of brass and a box of black was barely negligible.  Use whatever screw you want, even a drywall screw will do.  I liked the brass, as I used them, having used others; the #2 head is perhaps the only essential part because the basic bit with most drills is a #2.  I've been reading around, and it turns out brass screws are actually better than drywall screws, whereas drywall screws are very brittle; they break instead of bending.  In this setting, I have a good inexpensive screw.  I literally have most of the box left over, which I threw in my cupboard for future wall hangings or anywhere I want a brass screw.

I did get a stud finder, and after using it a couple times, I threw it to the side and let my brass screws do the stud finding for me.  3-4 seconds per hole, tops?  If I didn't find a stud, in went an anchor...

I don't know how much further I'm going with the layout as my time is being directed towards other projects.  I've tested out the hypothesis and found it builds into a sufficient base and on a very short budget in a quick amount of time.  And this foundation provides an unreal breadth of variety in depth above and below grade, something I see come up as a common concern when it comes to shelf layouts.  Going ahead, I'd love to spend more time looking at the issues that arise from not being able to access under the layout like a regular sheet of plywood allows.

But at this point, the rest [scenery, trains, history, railroad] is immaterial. 

" brass screws "

 The main problem with brass screws is they are soft so the head strips out easily. Brass plated steel screws are stronger if one needs that look but they will eventually rust. When I want a premium non rusting screw I head down to West Marine and buy some stainless screws........DaveBranum