I have found that eBay is one of the best places to get photos/slides.  Yes, you will not see the same photo every week.  I do save some on my PC.  I also buy a few slides if the photo is something I need.  I'm getting ready to ballast track and it is hard to find good reference photos on the net.  eBay has a few dozen show up every week.  Some photos that have a poor subject are the best for seeing the track in my case.

Use photos for everything.  It doesn't mean you have to slavishly follow the prototype for everything, but few people can hope to create convincing scenery or weathering without photos as a guide.

The following is my opinion as well as other You-Tube posters comments.

Over the  past few weeks late at night when I can't work on my Pike do to the family sleeping I have been watching you-Tube Videos. It's is amazing that there are literally thousands of RR Videos. The thing I really have been noticing is scenery or the improper application of scenery.

I see Scenery with huge mountains made with very well made rock castings molds and painted in ways that makes no sense what so ever. Then they have bushes and trees growing right out of solid rock faces on a Railroad that is running through Delaware. That was just one, another New York central RR has Saguaro Cactus along the edge on the yard with 10 giant Redwood Trees in a park.

I understand the "it's my Railroad and I can do what I want" BUT, when you do things like this it is no longer a scale model it becomes a toy train that was very poorly thought out. It just doesn't make sense to me why somebody would waist there money building scenery that is the wrong colors (Glossy Dark Purple and Bright Yellow Rocks) that just doesn't happen in nature except through the eyes of someone on an Acid Trip.

Joe your June Editorial about us (Model railroaders) needing to find photos of the scenic areas we are wanting to Model on our Pike rather then just building scenery out of the back of our minds is probably some of the best advice you have ever given the Model Railroad community.

I hope everybody that ever builds scenery or ever will reads this editorial. Just putting the right type tree and the correct type of foliage together in the correct location in their proper railroads terrain can really make or break your railroad. Even if your the most talented tree and mountain designer on the planet Palm trees don't grow on the north Pole and Saguaro Cactus doesn't grow in the NEW YORK Grand Central Station.

Thanks Joe 5 stars +++++

Dan

Sheesh, do your research, save some time...

This is why I model Arizona.  This next picture, this is not Colorado, nor is it Flagstaff; You're in Marana, Northwest of Tucson, standing at about 2000 ft, somewhere around Ina Road!

Gotta love this state!! ;)

Looks like some people have broken windows in that old glass house.

And how does this person know that this is not a new modeling technic?  Who knows you can start with a base of Purple and Yellow and when it is done it looks more real than being there.  I know I start with a base of white.  or how about the people that start with a base of pink????

Good idea with the photos.  as I do you use the photos.  My little girl does not.  Her cousin will be running Thomas on my layout too.  And I will let him do it.  O' My Good a Blue Engine with a face.  I'm not a fan of Thomas,  But the kids love him and I do not suck the wind out of this hobby.  So Thomas runs on the GS&M and he moves close to 180mph.

...Eric if I criticized you for the way you model?  Is that what you want?  As I read your posts I can't sense but contempt and bitterness for those of us who want to accurately model what is (or was) there.  If you want purple and yellow mountains and run blue locomotives with faces on them, GO FOR IT! As one of my favorite modelers (a well known columnist i might add) says "it's your railroad, and you can do whatever you want to do".  But there is no need to disparage those of us who want to set a DIFFERENT set of benchmarks.  Not better ones, just a different ones. 

Ken L

What has happened to this forum that the cartoon modelers are taking over?  Is it just that the serious modelers are too afraid of offending someone that they won't speak up, or is it really the case that the typical reader of this forum finds nothing wrong with yellow rocks and purple grass?  It's a sad state of affairs.

Are you kidding me?  If I want to put yellow rocks and purple grass on my layout, who gives you the right to tell me it's wrong?  So the fact that you might wear old man jeans as opposed to the new hipper jeans, does that give me the right to criticize you!!!???  Are you going to criticize things that you DON'T agree with, just because YOU don't agree with them?  Give me a break!

Nobody's taking over ... it's a big hobby and we all ought to be able to express how we like to pursue it without others getting all wrapped around the axle about it. (Reverse Running's at the other end of the magazine ...)

So play nice, guys.

..... the way you like it, post pictures somewhere and you will be pummeled by the "experts" every time. Or keep it for yourself and privately have fun with what you have. No middle ground here.

Yeah, I think I'm going to take a break from this forum.  The nonsense is just out of hand.

Yeah, I think I'm going to take a break from this forum.  The nonsense is just out of hand.

Then think about that the next time you post ludicrous statements like you did.

Once again I start out a statement with 5 simple words and the small minded reader pay no attention to it Try reading my Post Again after the subject line it started with:

The following is my opinion

but all of the toy train people didn't read it. they must have been the You-tube posters with the cartoon rail road video that have glossy purple and yellow mountains. How about reading the Magazine article before you comment on other members posts because it has to be you DIDN'T read it. Must be More graduates of the Evelyn wood speed reading course.

^{Are you kidding me?  If I want to put yellow rocks and purple grass on my layout, who gives you the right to tell me it's wrong?}

We have actual rights to criticize other's modelling efforts? Since when?

It's your layout, and I for one think you should go for it.

While you're at it, I think you should make your water a day-glow florescent orange colour. Oh, and a baby blue rock mix to ballast your right-of-way. Call your railroad the Giggle & Yahoo and have fun.

It's your layout, so do whatever the heck you want.

Just don't be surprised when a lot of people don't take your layout seriously.

And by the way, the reason why has nothing to do with someone's supposed "rights" to criticize other's modelling.

Now if someone wants to model what's seen in reality, it's not a bad idea to look at photos of the real thing to help figure out how to proceed. I really can't believe such a simple and obvious concept as that can trigger such silly commentary on a model railroad forum.

Let's keep the blood pressure throttled back in here, okay?

Rule 1 applies. That doesn't mean that gentle correction isn't sometimes called for when the improbable or impossible is presented as prototypical, but it does mean that denigration and personal attacks are out of line.

We've got a nice place here. Please help us keep it so.

. . .the purple sage is the song name. Tons of it up my way along with the bright yellow grasslands below. It's  not called the "golden state" for nothing. And the Scottish Highlands of my previous life have purple heather all over the sides of the glens. 

Some of you are expressing really really ugly sentiments...

As for purple mountains, purple is a good base color for modeling distant mountains in the desert.  They have a purple tint to them.  There's something with how the sun falls upon them too.

Yellow is a good plains/grassland color, particularly if you're modeling around the Sonoita area when the yellow flowers are all in bloom.  Imagine fields, and fields, as far as you can see, YELLOW! and green spotted in for good measure.  In the fall, you see the same fields covered with a dry tannish white of dead grass.

Heck..why Imagine?

I have seen fields like this in purple, in the same region, I just remember where...or rather, When, as in, which part of the season!

As for Orange, only here in the last few years my Grandmother witnessed it herself, near Roosevelt lake, where the hills from the road to the mountains off in the distance were covered in so many orange flowers the whole area looked Orange.  Different species, different time...slight change of locality...

How about yellow trees?  they're like this every Spring, the Mesquite, Catclaw and Palo Verde blooming in turn...

Purple trees, I grew up with a Purple Plum tree on the front lawn, all year round as dark red-purple as purple can be...So there's not much stretch there.

Now as for your blue ballast, you're really not likely to ever see such a thing because blue [and greens] is the color of Good Copper Ore - Chrysocolla, for instance.  That's the stuff they cart out and smelt into copper!  In the old days when people first came out here, there's reports of Spaniards excavating silver from veins a foot wide, and I have seen a good number of workings where the copper layer has been completely stripped out, a layer that was perhaps 3 and 8 feet wide.  That would have been a green streak while it was still in place!

Seriously, get out of the basement and go look at your landscape a bit.  It really helps if you drive through it for a year, every day, so you get a sense of the seasonal nuances. "It never snows in the desert" is blase ignorance at best.  Believe it or not, it was 19 degrees out on January 28th [or was it the 29th, 30th?]of 2011 at 9:00 AM!  And yes, it was COLD out there at work!

I see Scenery with huge mountains made with very well made rock castings molds and painted in ways that makes no sense what so ever. Then they have bushes and trees growing right out of solid rock faces on a Railroad that is running through Delaware. That was just one, another New York central RR has Saguaro Cactus along the edge on the yard with 10 giant Redwood Trees in a park.

Saguaros are indigenous only to Arizona, out of all 50 states, however, they like any other species can be moved so long as it doesn't get too cold in the place they are moved too.  Hence, you may encounter Saguaros in California, Nevada and Texas, but I assure you they were moved there by people.  Texas is ironically the one state most commonly correlated with the Saguaro.  In Arizona, we just laugh about it - it's a pretty good joke to us.

I have yet to see an actual true Redwood modeled in 1:87.  A true old redwood would be a real 350 feet tall and 20-30 feet wide - scale wide, that's roughly 3.5 feet tall and a 1/3rd foot diameter at the bottom. A small 20 year old redwood is still a 50 footer, these sorts I Have seen on layouts.  But there are a very large number of species that grow to 50 feet.  Even then, I have not been back east, and i have not studied eastern arbology, so I would not know what species grow back east, though i recon there's more than a handful of species!  There is the Eastern White Pine, for one.  Ironically enough, Arizona is home to the worlds largest stand of Ponderosa Pine, a tree that looks rather good in Scale.  That's right, the same state that is the only native home of the saguaro cactus, is also home to a whole lotta pine trees too.  And if you were to draw a line between these trees and Gallup, New Mexico on the high desert [where places had might as well looks like Radiator Springs], you'd run into one of the world largest petrified forests - that's right, a forest of fallen trees all turned to rock, in the middle of a place called 'the Painted Desert."  Oh the wonders of this state!!!

I understand the "it's my Railroad and I can do what I want" BUT, when you do things like this it is no longer a scale model it becomes a toy train that was very poorly thought out. It just doesn't make sense to me why somebody would waist there money building scenery that is the wrong colors (Glossy Dark Purple and Bright Yellow Rocks) that just doesn't happen in nature except through the eyes of someone on an Acid Trip.

That's absolutely right.  It's my railroad, and it is INDEED a toy train layout.  No matter how well done it is, at the end of the day, it is still such.  It may look really, really good, but it still is what it is!  Now if you go and do it to an obscenely wonderful level, you may get a couple awards and some good hobby press time, but it won't change what your hobby or your layout is at it's root core.

It's a scale model - and at the core, it's still a toy train.  If this changes how you feel about it, or you feel the need to make it 'something else' to justify the amount of money or the time spent on the hobby, so be it.

And I realized I have seen your purple rocks - Molybdenum, and I have your Yellow rock too.  They're called Sulfur Deposits.

Anyhow...

I think the base issue here is, everybody assumes they can Understand what they are looking at with nothing further than what knowledge they are already familiar with.  If you see something that doesn't make sense, stop and take a moment to dig deeper or even just ask the modeler.  In some cases, what they are trying to do may very well be somewhere close to what they have done, but the execution is off.

I have seen yellow rocks in the Davis Mountains here in Texas, They are covered with a local variation of yellow lichen that grows there.

I have seen purple wild flowers on the prairie near my home, but no grass.

It snowed a couple years ago in Corpus Christi so I guess the Palm Trees had snow on them.

I guess there is a prototype for just about everything. I'm just sorry I don't have any pictures, Then I could put all of this on my planned layout.

Regards,

John

************************************************************************************************************************************************

The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once. >> Albert Einstein

Gentlemen,

It was pretty clear to me that Dan's point was to agree with Joe's article, in that you should use photographs when possible, and especially when starting out, to aid in your modeling as a reference. This wasn't about kid's layouts, or people with visual impairments, Dan in fact referenced people's videos that were put up on a public sharing web site so that they could be seen.  Generally people don't put up stuff to be seen if they don't want it to be (meaning they're expecting some kind of response).

While his tone and use of language perhaps was not the best choice to get his point across, it certainly didn't warrant the vitriol it earned (I mean really - digging up year's old posts?).

For the record, I like my scenery to be as realistic as I can make it within my skill set and  I prefer to see pictures and models that accurately represent what they are trying to represent — I am also greatly fond of making a bee-line for the lego layout at train shows, and enjoy operating on my friend's (back home) hi-rail American Flyer plywood prairie layout (its always one of my high points going home).

So what does that make me — confused? I'd like to think instead, I'm just a reasonable adult enjoying multiple aspects of the same hobby, but I can live with confused.

Sadly, it looks like honeymoon here is over, and this forum has begun it's inevitable slide from a resource surrounding what is to me the most important part  of the hobby — making models, regardless of accuracy — to one that I prefer a lot less — endless theoretical discussions that do little to promote the hobby or build community, but instead devolve into vitriol and bruised egos.

Folks should also read Joe's reverse running, as he points out another way to get involved in the hobby part of the hobby. Good advice, that.

_{edit - grammatical errors}

Sadly, it looks like honeymoon here is over, and this forum has begun it's inevitable slide from a resource surrounding what is to me the most important part  of the hobby — making models, regardless of accuracy — to one that I prefer a lot less — endless theoretical discussions that do little to promote the hobby or build community, but instead devolve into vitriol and bruised egos.

This editorial shouldn't have been controversial at all, and yet it blew up into a "Reverse Running" type of discussion.  There's a huge difference between building unusual stuff knowing full well what it is, and trying to model from memory while intending to create a realistic scene or weathering job.  Joe was addressing the latter.  If you want your modeling to be realistic, basing it on photos is the easiest way to get there.  If not, then don't worry about it.  

More aggressive moderation might help, but there's always a risk in degrading a forum if it's not handled well, and by moderators with the appropriate disposition and tact.

 Here is a gentle suggestion to everybody involved:

 It is normally okay to comment on layouts and models and ideas - both to to offer praise and encouragement, and to point out challenges or things you think can be improved (preferably in a not too rough way).

 It is normally not a good idea to comment on the perceived personalities or motives of other posters. To suggest that other posters are mean, arrogant, ignorant or whatever.

 Let's keep it clean, eh? Go for the ball, not the man.

 Smile,
 Stein

Lets get something sraight people, my statement was directed at this comment:

"What has happened to this forum that the cartoon modelers are taking over?  Is it just that the serious modelers are too afraid of offending someone that they won't speak up, or is it really the case that the typical reader of this forum finds nothing wrong with yellow rocks and purple grass?  It's a sad state of affairs."

Cartoon modelers because we don't follow a prescribed way of doing things? And now Dan calls people small-minded? Really? I guess that's okay in this forum though.

Actually, Paul

Are you kidding me?  If I want to put yellow rocks and purple grass on my layout, who gives you the right to tell me it's wrong?  So the fact that you might wear old man jeans as opposed to the new hipper jeans, does that give me the right to criticize you!!!???  Are you going to criticize things that you DON'T agree with, just because YOU don't agree with them?  Give me a break!

If you put up your work in a public site, you are inviting commentary. 

For example, on this forum, if you posted a picture of that work, any member or who chose to become a member, would have the right to tell if they think it was great, or wrong. And they can continue to do so until those who run the forum have decided that person no longer has rights to do so.

They may not use the best language to get their point across (as in the case above) and you may or may not  agree with their assessment, but by populating content in a public forum (such as here or onYouTube) you actually enable the ability for people to comment accordingly.

If you are unhappy with the results of the enabling, that's a different story.

So I would disagree with you and AlcoTed. Under these conditions, we, as members of the public, do have the right to criticize and provide critical commentary to other's works when they are presented in a public setting.

If that work is defined a certain way, than naturally criticism should match the content (yes, if you were saying you wanted to model Vermont in the winter, and have a desert environment with purple grass and orange rocks, I would say that does not look correct; however if you say you're trying to model a fantasy land, than great stuff. There is some responsibility on the content owner to define their work and desired outcome in these cases as well.)

I fully expect and desire to have my work criticized by others when I post it up, I find that to be a huge benefit. I find it helps me grow my hobby skills, even when it frustrates me by pointing out my errors.  

If others do not, than they should re-consider posting things in public.

If as well, we're not able to post criticisms of other's actual modeling, nor accept it of our own, but instead spend our forum time complaining about cost, the past, cats, the best DCC system, the unreasonableness of [n] within the hobby, general esoteric philosophical musings, and the NMRA (including the logo), well, there are other forums who do that better.

Well said, Scarp. When I made my first post on this forum about a culvert a little over a year ago, I received a lot of helpful comments and constructive criticism. A number of folks actually posted pictures of various culverts. The information helped me a lot, and I was impressed by the civility and genuine interest of the members of the forum.

As I was new to all this posting business, I made up three simple rules for my postings: 1) be courteous; 2) be helpful; and, 3) comment on those things for which I have first-hand experience. I also found that I was spending too much time on the forum, so I started limiting my participation to only those topics that relate directly to modeling railroads and their operation. That gave me more time to do what I like most, and that's work on the many projects I have underway.

Let's hope the forum remains a great place for all of us to share modeling projects and railroad related information.

Tom Patterson 

But the question is, who are you to say that something doesn't belong in a layout?  You can criticize all you want, but calling a layout a toy layout or saying that someone is a cartoon modeler because they have something there that you don't approve of?  THAT'S the problem here.

In my opinion, that's why you really don't see a lot of people posting their layouts here.  Lots of readers, but hardly any new layouts being displayed?

If others do not, than they should re-consider posting things in public.

So because it's a public forum, then that gives the right to be critiqued in such a manner as described above?  I thought this was a forum for adults?  I look forward to posts from some of you; I'll be sure to criticize in kind.

As I was new to all this posting business, I made up three simple rules for my postings: 1) be courteous; 2) be helpful; and, 3) comment on those things for which I have first-hand experience.

It seems that #1 is being overlooked in some of these critiques.  But I guess that's okay with you, since you agree with Scarp.

Ok here's my last round up,  Paul, than I'm going to stop on this topic (I have some modeling I'd like to get done before I go golfing), but you can PM me if you'd like.

I still hold that because it is a public forum, anyone has the right to critique any model that is posted here.

I still hold that the original content owner (i.e. the guy with the model or layout) has as much responsibility to frame their subject in the context they want as responders have to try and stay pertinent to the subject at hand.

With those thoughts in mind, back to the topic at hand.

You can criticize all you want, but calling a layout a toy layout or saying that someone is a cartoon modeler because they have something there that you don't approve of?  THAT'S the problem here.

Actually, the problem here in my opinion (and as I mentioned in previous posts) was a poor choice of language.

However, the immediate personal reaction to those comments is in my opinion also a poor choice, as at no time was a specific layout or modeler selected.  It is not as if you posted a picture of your layout, asking for advice on rolling stock, and it was than called a toy, or your work in some other way diminished.

For myself, it was easy to read past these generic comments to the point that I believe the author was making - which was using photographs to support your modeling is a good idea, and can help alleviate an un-realistic approach.

In my opinion, that's why you really don't see a lot of people posting their layouts here.  Lots of readers, but hardly any new layouts being displayed?

I have no idea on this, nor could I even guess.  If you opinion is accurate, it would seem unfortunate for the layout owners, as from my perspective critical feedback is essential to hobby growth - especially when you don't have a local alternative.  I can only hope they get that feedback through another mechanism.

I've been to another forum and people there seem to talk trains.

Ok.

So because it's a public forum, then that gives the right to be critiqued in such a manner as described above?  I thought this was a forum for adults?  I look forward to posts from some of you; I'll be sure to criticize in kind.

Once again, as it's a public forum, if the original content owner does not take the responsibility to guide and frame the discussion, than it seems unrealistic to complain about the resulting comments.

But we're talking about something that actually didn't happen - this wasn't a forum topic that was critiqued in the manner you describe (although some of the others that were resurrected in response were handled exactly in that manner).

I also thought this was a forum for people of all ages, not just adults, but it's hard to guess a user's age simply upon supplied content.

Now, I have a slew of turnouts to gap prior to soldering feeders, if I can get at least three done before breaking the next blade, I'll be a happy camper!

I look forward to your critique of my work, that is after all exactly why I post things in public. Don't worry though, if I find your comments off mark or insulting, I won't stress it that much.

I think this post is done for me as well.  Get those turnouts gapped.

I did some weathering lately... and basically I suspect I broke two of the major rules:

1. I didn't have adequate lighting; and

2. I wasn't using photos for reference.

You know... the weathering sort of reflects that. It's pretty heavy in places (of course, Gons are supposed to look beat up, right?).

So after I'm done painting the house (priorities here), I'll take another look at them and see if I need to do some softening.

Or... if I can find photos that look as "bad" as the models do. :-D

I continue to be amazed at the number of new modelers who will post some modeling for comment and it looks, well, very unrealistic. We all have a "first attempt" and they generally look like a first attempt, but some first attempts just shout beginner.

Almost without fail, those that don't look at all realistic didn't have a photo reference they were working from.

Those same modelers would never think of detailing a loco or piece of rolling stock without having a photo reference.

Funny how that is.