Connectors

Dear MRHers,

Are we honestly reccomending for "allcomer" modellers to cut open alkaline batteries, 
(with some very real personal injury risk potential! 
Any publication appearing to advocate of promote such behaviour may be opening itself to some risk too...)

just to get a set of clip-on contacts, 
when suitable connectors are readily available thru most "local electronics stores" worldwide?

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062219
(just one example)

And before it is noted that the article states that a "connector _without_wires_" was/is needed, it's far safer to trim or remove wires from, and/or section a connector as linked above, than risk dis-assembling an actual battery!

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Connectors

I am totally surprised that was not mentioned by the Powers That Be here. I would never advise a newbie to open any kind of battery when the part is so easily available.

Right now, all I get is the below when clicking on the link.

The server encountered an unexpected condition which prevented it from fulfilling the request

Rich

And ...

Yes, Prof wrote what I would have written ...

AND if it is not obvious, Radioshack is packaging 5 connectors in the package for the advertised $2.99. I bought mine years ago and have not run out yet.

My Fault

I should have mentioned the alternative for beginners.

A  9 volt snap with wires could easily be substituted, the principal is the same.

On the other hand I should also note that my 14 year old son has taken apart a 9 volt battery without injury to himself or others nearby. {wink}

Also Prof, nothing need be "cut" in opening a 9 volt battery.

I LOVE mine

Kevin, you put together an article explaining what I just hit the edges of in my January column (http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh-2012-01-jan/dcc_impulses). I use the All Electronics snaps, as mentioned above. Just built a new one with a piece of perf board - all parts, except the battery and hardware, came from All Electronics.

[attach:fileid=59347_27_2ws2hOI+8QpZvRGgr//Z]

Opening a battery for a reason

If you're going to open a battery, do it for a good reason.  Here's a video on how to do it:

Now, for those of you that didn't see the name of the video.....it is a gag!

Rick

battery connector

Prof,

If opening a battery is to dangerous for you, I must recommend you avoid any sort of power tool.  Dremels etc are far more dangerous than a stationary battery.  A razor saw may be more dangerous than a stationary battery. 

Are you sure your not being a little too politically correct?

Respectfully,

silvertip

Safety

Yes, we can carry his on. How far above he floor do you sit on the chair at your work bench?

How far do you have to lean over to reach the beer glass?

Rich

Dangerous?

How many "newbies" are jumping into the hobby feet first by building a short detector out of a battery to debug a DCC issue?  What's the big deal...it's an alkaline battery. 

We work with Xacto blades, Floquil paints, ACC, soldering irons, table saw, electricity etc. etc. etc.  All dangerous to a certain extent.

Sure, you can pick up an adapter for a few bucks.  But, Kevin's tip saved me $3.00 and a half hour trip to Radio Shack.  I thought it was pretty clever and hadn't even considered it.  The point is, like anything else, be careful and you'll be fine.

No User Serviceable Parts Inside

Dear SilverTip,

Politically Correct? No.

Conscious that

- a Dremel, razorsaw, and other common modelling implements are,
and are clearly sold and understood to be,

a tool, 

intended to be used as such,

come with all the appropriate warnings, 

and the User undertakes it's use with a clear understanding of the risks involved 
(and a reasonably large company to take legal aim at if they feel something's amiss)

- A domestic 9V battery is sold as a "no user servicable parts inside" item. It is intended to be used for the purpose of powering a suitable device, as is, without change/modification. Disassembling such a unit in any manner represents mis-use on the part of the user. Shorting even a single cell from within a multi-cell battery is a potential thermal, fire, and chemical risk. Puncturing even a single cell is a potential chemical risk.
(NB that while "they all look like 9volt batteries", we could be talking Lead-Acid, Alkaline, NiCad, or other chemicals...)

- Appearing to reccomend dis-assembling such an item by "anyone"/"all-comers" is to leave oneself open to significant personal and legal risk (as does any communication system that appears to distribute such "advice").

What I feel comfy with myself has no relevance or bearing on what I can in good conscience reccomend for you, or anyone else, esp over a hobby-related (IE non-Electrical Professional) forum. 
(I am qualified for, and regularly assemble, dis-assemble, and modify power sources and circuitry ranging from 1VDC logic thru Single Phase 240VAC/3-Phase 415VAC 32Amp, to 6.6KV industrial equipment, FWIW) 

I am therefore very sure I'm not being too politically correct...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS Apparently many modellers find wiring, soldering, and basic electronics "problematic",
(Which I appreciate, in the same way that I struggle with Painting and Decalling, I guess),

and yet, are quite willing to tear a battery apart in order to save what, < US$0.50c for a connector?
(When, in order to obtain the other parts for the project, they probably walked straight past the relevant connectors in the electronics shop anyway?)

Dear Bill, You had a 12V

Dear Bill,

You had a 12V piezo buzzer and aligator clips onhand?

For those who don't, they'll be heading to RadioShack anyway, so a 9V battery connector is only an extra 2 paces out of their way...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS you're completely correct, "newcomers" _do_ come to MRH seeking wise counsel on their new-found hobby. They, as such, may very well take everything that they read and see as writ. Any successful author "knows their audience", and with the knowledge that such "un-questioning sponges" will be soaking up every skeric of info presents, recognize the _responsibility_ of presenting relevant, useful, and _safe_ information.

Dear Rich, You're right, we

Dear Rich,

You're right, we _could_. However, Kevin has already commented that a < US$0.50c battery connector is do-able, available, and a safer option. If the author acknowledges that, (which he has), then both he and any distributing publication have discharged their duties, and the modeller reading is better informed as to a safer method of achiveing what is a very useful little tool! (Seriously, Kevin's got a simple yet useful idea here, and IMHO that's to be fully applauded!).

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

+1 Prof

Alligator clips I've got.  Piezo buzzer...not so much.  Is there any way to make one by busting open a microwave or something??  

I think as long as people aren't swiping them out of their fire detectors, there's relatively little risk in following the steps outlined in the article.

No User Serviceable Parts Inside

Prof,

If the newbie can't learn on disassembly of a battery, would it be better for him to start with a Dremel, an exacto knife or maybe a table saw?  He has to start somewhere and a battery sounds like the safest  place to start and the author put a caution sharp edges disclaimer notice in his article.  Perhaps the entire hobby is just too dangerous and other pursuits should be employed.

Sincerly,

Dear SilverTip, I quote

Dear SilverTip,

I quote from the package of a current Duracell 9VDC battery

"...CAUTION: Insert batteries correctly. Remove batteries when not used for long periods. Replace all batteries at the same time. May explode or leak, and cause burn injury, if recharged, disposed of in fire, mixed with a different battery type, inserted incorrectly, or disassembled. Do not carry batteries loose in your pocket or purse. Do not remove the battery label..."
(emphasis added)

Silvertip, unless you genuinely _want_ to take a battery apart,
(and if you're willing to take the responsibility, far be it from me or anyone else to tell you otherwise),

I'd respectfully suggest there's not any real valid logical reason to do so within a modelling context...
(nothing useful for a newcomer modeller to "learn" here...)

If you _really_ want to encourage newcomer modellers to tear something apart,
(and then put it back together again to working state),

hand them a 2nd hand Athearn Blue Box diesel. The resulting practical knowledge of basic mechs and pickups, etc, is going to be far more valuable to the active modeller than the contents of any domestic battery...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

My turn at the pulpit again...

Indeed, the safest and easiest way to get a short detector is to buy a Multi-Meter with a continuity test function.  If it has alligator clips for the probes, that might be more easily connected in some cases.

If you are experienced with handing dangerous goods and have little regard for your own safety or that of others, you might try building your own in a way similar to what I did.

I used the contact board from a battery for the following reasons:

1.  I believe the board I used is sturdier than the boards available wrapped in plastic with wires attached.

2.  I had a through-hole mount buzzer that I salvaged off the control board from an old microwave.  Yes, no serviceable parts in that one either.  The battery contact board seemed well suited to mounting the buzzer directly to the board.

3.  It was FREE.  The battery had already paid for itself.

4.  It was available.  I have no local parts supply.  Radio Shack does not even exist in Canada any longer.

Bruce,

That`s a fine example of a safely built short detector.   Too bad you did not write an article.  You could have saved me stepping in the MRH safety ca-ca.

John Dimitrievich

"Prof Klyzlr" is the pseudonym of a well-known Australian.  From Yahoo search.

Prof, are you a real professor or is the title misleading?  If your a real prof, would you mind stating where your credential comes from?

Good-day,

silvertip

I sense....

I sense that this is about to become personal and turn into a "flame war".  I respectfully request that if this escalates that it be taken "off line"; that is, email each other directly or better yet if possible phone each other.  In any event, lets keep it respectful and positive.  The MRH forum is know for it's friendliness and we want to keep it that way.

Rick

And the Prof

Dear Paul aka

Dear Paul aka "Silvertip",

The name "Prof Klyzlr" is indeed a psuedonym, as too I imagine (and have no personal issue with) is "SilverTip".

Despite the roots of the pseudonym going back to pre-1998,
(Check the old OneList and eGroups forums, and the original HOn30 Mailcar on MajorDomo servers),

I do hold Mech and Elec/Electronic Eng Degrees (U.O.W, Aust) amongst others. 
It's just not something I feel I need to tag onto my "train" stuff.

Now, as to how this O/T mis-direction question relates to providing a logical valid reason behind why someone would want to dis-assemble a perfectly good alkaline battery, when safer and "fit for purpose" options exist,... 

???

The rest of the posters to this thread seems to have made their peace with it, 
and with Kevin noting that battery dis-assembly is not a mandatory requirement to build the tester, 
when safer options exist and are generally available at easily hobby-budget-acceptable costs, so have I...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
John Dimitrievich
aka "Prof Klyzlr"
Sydney Australia

PS apologies to the list, cannot seem to find a "PM" or "Direct Contact" function within MRH forum???

Audible Short Detector

I think Kevin should be thanked for going to the trouble of writing an article about a very useful piece of test equipment that I'm sure we all can use.  I also appreciate the "Prof's" input on the potential safety issues associated with the opening of the 9-volt battery.  I think safety should be an important consideration in everything we do in our hobby, e.g., taking appropriate precautions when spray painting models, etc.

Hopefully we can now lay this topic to rest.

Bob

I did!

http://issuu.com/mr-hobbyist/docs/mrh12-01-jan2012-ol/43?viewMode=presentation&mode=embed

Page 44

I don't get it...

Why is everybody up in arms?

The sky is falling contingent have their feathers ruffled.

Rick is already convinced this is going to sink into the pit and become a flame war and is calling for the national guard!

The Prof's credentials are being questioned...AGAIN!

Dave feels the need to try to make peace, and I still don't get what all the fuss is about.

Everybody needs to relax.  I wrote an article mistakenly assuming that it was not going over anyone's heads.  The Prof pointed out that what I did, might not be ideal for the masses.  I agreed.  End of story.

Can we please move on to discussing the merits of the short detector in general?

Thanks to those of you who appreciated the article (with it's flaws) and have said as much here and in private.

Details

A couple times I mentioned elsewhere I use digital multimeter with a fuse to protect the Amps scale. During a project, the fuse blew. I quickly wrapped a piece of aluminum foil around the fuse to finish the ts. Boy, I got hammered suggesting I did that even if I knew what I was doing.

Next day I stopped at the local RS and picked up the fuses. I have a lot of fuses but the ones in some of these meters are what you would call Metric. Different style from the older glass and ceramic fuses.

This is not rocket science as I have done that also but I do know the difference. This is model railroading.

How many times have we been running a loco on layout we are proud of the prototype accuracy and gabbing and not paying attention to what we are doing. Prototype loco drivers have accidents doing that. I suspect we ALL do that from time to time.

Rich