Where it Hurts...

This debate is about as old as the MR press, dating back to the editorial pages even in the earliest days of the likes of MR.  It won't be going away, either.

I will say this much: We have all been hit by the prototype movement in a large way, whether we know it or not.  The idea that the model is worth more based upon it's prototype accuracy hurts us all in the pocketbook, whereas the manufacturers know this will get them a fast buck, even if they sell fewer pieces.  And if you want to get a good look at where this might go for Plastic, take a good hard look at where Brass went.

I think, ultimately, it leads to far more people who are of the "I can't model This because This is not Produced" persuasion.  Or those who won't build anything because they're so affixated on getting their prototype right first.  but we'll see where things go.

What disturbs me most is how quick people are to roll their eyes when it comes to the hobby - and once they've done that, there's no getting them back.  One of the easiest ways to get them there, is to press into the accuracy of the detail - that point where they KNOW you're insane!!  And the other route is when they crack open the "oh, but it's expensive."  And it IS!  At that point, we're up against all the old stereotypes all over again.

I'm not too concerned, whereas I've been picking up whatever inexpensive raft comes my way.  Once I build my railroad, it will probably be a freelanced line running between Prescott and Pheonix... by way of the OTHER side of the mountain!

I know you don't buy into

I know you don't buy into this, Joe.  You're just thowing out the bait to see who will bite.

The general public are the ones who are into Hogwarts Express and Thomas the Tank engine, because their kids like them, and they want stuff to make their kids happy.  Those fantasy trains are great in that they may spark a real interest in trains in some of those kids, which may manifest itself in new lifelong hobby.  I really can't see too many people wanting to model a Hogwarts layout, though, other than the rare Harry Potter fan who also likes trains, but in that case the Harry Potter is clearly more important than the trains are.  I think most of the time the Hogwarts Express or Thomas end up as guest trains on dad's layout rather than having a home of their own.

Now your Mount Hood Christmas train is just plain marketting.  People like Christmas activites and they look for things to do on the weekend, and say, "hey look at this!  We can take a train ride to see Santa on Saturday..."  and off they go.  The train probably makes it more appealing than a bus ride up to the mountain, but that's just the novelty of the train ride.  There will be precious few new model railroaders born on that trip.

None of those things have much to do with recruiting new modellers to the hobby.  You need that spark which we all know but can't define or explain to get people to decide to dedicate some of their time and resources to model trains.  Once they start though, the learning curve begins.  People find things in the hobby which interest them, and other things which don't turn them on so much.  This gives rise to the "rivet counter" vs. "I just want to run trains" battle which endlessly rages in places like this forum.  It's all a waste of breath and keystrokes as far as I'm concerned.  It makes no sense that people feel the need to complain about well detailed and accurate models, but that's just because I'm more in the rivet counter camp.

There's still old Accurail and Athearn (just to name a couple) for people who don't care whether their models are accurate or well detailed.  I think these appeal to people who are more into locomotives and just want something for their engines to pull, or for people who like the magic of a remote control empire rather than recreating reality in miniature.  And then there are the people who only care how much they pay for things, doesn't matter if it's inaccurate or crude, just so long as it's cheap--well, those folks get under my skin, so I'll just avoid further comment.

Those who are modellers at heart, however, care what their models look like and will either buy the detailed, accurate models or kitbash, scratchbuild and super-detail their models in order to recreate their memories or the photographic record of what real trains are or were.  We all wish the top end models were less expensive, but someone had to put a lot of sweat and effort into getting those models made so we wouldn't have to scratchbuild them, so I'm OK with paying them some money for it.  When I look at the quality and accuracy of most of the equipment on the Sudbury Division, I'm most grateful that someone cared enough about accurate models to get them made so that we could do as good a job as we have recreating CP in the 70s.  

Now we just need to find some manufacturers to produce ready to install structures of all the buildings near the tracks in Sudbury, Ontario so we get the urban scenery up to the level of the trains...

Bah

For me, model railroading is two words: model - I am a modeler; I like things to be reasonably accurate, but I make them that way.  The fun is in modifying and modeling; ​railroading​ - what most people want to do with their models.  I have yet to do it because for 30 years I have been building my equipment.  I don't complain: I suspect I would get royally bored running my trains.  I prefer to work on them, and make them as I want them to be.

I never bought a brass loco: why get something so expensive you can only watch?  All my locos are kits, kitbashed and extensively detailed to my own taste.  

If the manufacturers were to please me, they would put out a line of bare boilers in different wheel arrangements and some cab options, and let me do the prototype detailing.  It ain't gonna happen, so I am happy to grind their bad detailing off and start fresh.

In the end, it is not lack of prototype realism that keeps people away.  It is the time, expense, reading, research, knowledge, sedentarism and relative uneventfulness of the hobby when compared to other occupations in these time-pressed days.

My obervations from a modular club.

We have about 40 members at last count.  Some are prototype modelers, some are freelance.  Various prototype modelers model favorite prototypes from all over the country.  Obviously being a Southern California club the majority model ATSF, U.P., S.P., or BNSF, but some other prototypes modeled are Pennsy, NYC, Penn-Central, N.S. and Wisconsin Central, just "off the top of my head."  We have people modeling freelance lines where they run what hey like from manufacturers with paint and lettering to match their personal railroad.  We have one member who models prototype, but also models Thomas and most of the friends.  He started doing it for the kids at shows, but has become something of a fan as well.

The only requirement from the club is that whatever you run must run reliably.  Depending on who is running, we may have a train pulled by a steam engine with a bunch of 1930's-1940's vintage cars on the layout running with the latest Super power pulling a stack train.  Some of our members belong to the Fullerton Plaza Association (a railroad historical group) and have highly detailed modules depicting Fullerton, Ca. in 1952, and we may have an Appalachian coal drag running through Fullerton. 

We have had a few modelers quit, but they were not the freelance guys.  We had a few guys that were really into prototype operation and just could not stand the idea that we were not all running prototypical S.P., U.P. or ATSF trains from the transition era. 

Trains is Trains!

I love going to train shows and attending model railroad club open houses. I especially enjoy watching the kids at these events.

In my experience, it doesn't matter if the train that is running is the Hogwarts Express, Thomas the Tank engine, or a Norfolk Southern coal drag headed up by a trio of SD70ace's! The important thing to these kids is, its a train and its moving! In fact, the kids are often more likely to more excited by a long "prototype" coal drag than they will about a Thomas or Hogwarts train, mainly because it will be longer.

Apparently, sized does matter!

Too sophisticated? Bah! Come on! We are grown men and women playing with toy trains! What's "sophisticated" about that?

George

I tried to ad a reply, but it didn't show up.

I probably hit the wrong button! 

I had to leave before I finished my previous reply regarding my observations from the modular club.  The point of that rambling post is that freelancers will do their thing and prototype modelers will continue to do their thing.  I don't think the freelancers will notice or care that the new Exactrail car that they just bought is prototypically correct.  To the freelancer, it is just a freight car albeit well detailed.  To the prototype modeler the the fidelity to a specific prototype will be critical. 

The biggest discouragement to the beginner to the hobby may be the cost.  I try to emphasize to potential new model railroaders that you don't need to go out and buy everything you need in one shopping trip to build a model railroad.  Rather I recommend to beginners that they set a budget and buy what they can afford each week or each month.

The problem that I see is that the highly detailed, prototypically accurate models are so expensive that individual freight car prices may drive away customers.  I can see why the manufacturers are going in that direction.  It pleases the prototype modeler, and if your mark up is a certain percentage of the car's final retail price, the higher base price means more profit per unit sold.  The cheap less detailed cars are disappearing from the market.  I am dismayed that Athearn has not only discontinued their blue box kits, but even worse they are offering r-t-r versions of freight cars built with the old tooling at 2/3 of the price of Exact Rail, Intermountain, or BLMA highly detailed, prototypically accurate models.  Frankly it is hard to justify buying most Athearn freight cars at $20.00-$22.00 when my local hobby shop has Exact Rail, BLMA, & Intermountain cars for @ $30.00.  There are some new Athearn cars made with new tooling that are comparable to Exact Rail, Intermountain, or BLMA and priced around $30.00, and those represent decent value.

The way people enter the hobby has changed since the 50's

Yes that’s right, it’s all a great conspiracy for Intermountain, Atlas, Athearn, Walthers, etc, etc, etc, to reduce the worth of your locos and rolling stock, and make billions of dollars off us gullible rubes.

Seriously, this is the silliest thing I’ve read in a model railway forum in a while.

First, there is no right or wrong way to enjoy this hobby. From the proto-87 guys to those who collect and run antique tin-plate, whatever floats your boat is the right way to enjoy the hobby. Full stop.

Next, Benny, you’ve made it painfully clear now (over your many posts) that you don’t like the accurate, well-detailed R-T-R models that is now the norm in the hobby because (gasp!) they cost more than the old, standard $8.00 Athearn blue-box kit. Never have I, nor anyone else here who like these new detailed models, stated that they way we enjoy the hobby is the correct way; and all others are leading to the death of the hobby. Yet that’s pretty much your message to us.

I think you need to re-evaluate things and remember what I wrote in the paragraph above …there is no right or wrong way to enjoy this hobby …repeat this if you forget it. You stop trying to convince us that yours is the way to enjoy the hobby, and I’ll promise not to single you out like this again.

Finally, what Intermountain, Atlas, Athearn, Walthers, etc, etc, etc, have done is simple, they’ve brought North American rail modelling up to the same quality standards as Europe has been enjoying for over 30 years now. The model railroad hobby has not died in Germany yet, and it won’t be going away anytime soon here either.

The way people enter the hobby is different now than from the 1950’s Lionel trains experience. I wish people would get this. I see plenty of young folks in their 20’s in hobby shops here spending a lot of money on good R-T-R models. That alone tells me that this traditional entry into the hobby is as outdated as the typewriter. More and more great R-T-R models coming out tells me this is true.

To conclude, as Jurgen wrote above, I think Mr Fugate is “just throwing out the bait to see who will bite.” I’m pretty sure he knows the 1950’s Lionel ‘toy train way’ of people entering the hobby is long outdated too, and he is just looking at starting a good debate here.

Truth in the hand basket...

I went down this road discussing my hobby with the locals - you know, the ones who aren't model railroaders.  They told me Trains aren't THAT expensive - so I pulled out the Walther's catalog for their benefit and educated them on it.

$8.00 for an Athearn Bluebox, Huh??? Try $4.95, Because that's what it was when I got serious back in 2000.  $8.00 was the price for MDC/Roundhouse or perhaps the crane car.  The RTR bluebox are indeed nice, but they shelve around $16.00 and $20.00 now.  The cars you rave about are between $30 and $40.  This is no longer a fun hobby, if you have a heart attack ever single time not just the engine but a whole train makes a dash for the 300' canyon...

I've been also quite concerned with the resale value.  We see the initial MSRP, but then we see street price a couple months later.  There's two people who will pay the MSRP; those reserving the items - the Dyed in the wool and gotta have it no matter what folks - and the people who don't know better, the new modelers.  How quick do you think this is going to put the brakes on their idea that this hobby is affordable?  You can tell them it's affordable all you wish, but once you get down to it, they're going to see your words for what they are as they go shopping, and it's not going to be as kind as you thought.

I have no issue with real modelers who put their time and effort into making a better car.  I do have issue with the pocketbook modeler, though, who throws his checkbook at this hobby.

I'd say one would do well to take a good hard look at the beginning of G scale and the beginning of On30.  Both scales got a huge boost because one company in particular put out a great product of good quality and affordable durability, even if it was not specifically a prototype.  And both scales had their boom mainly from people "escaping" the proto wars in their native scale.  We'll see where it goes...

I have no issue with real

First of all, where do you get off judging how people pursue their hobby?  That's pretty arrogant and self righteous.

Second, I know for a fact that Ted took one of those beloved Athearn blue box 40 foot boxcars and put in his time and effort into making it better.  He also had to spend three times the price of the original model to make a silk purse out of that sow's ear in new ends, replacement doors, better trucks and couplers, brake details and paint and decals.  And after he was done it was still inferior to an Innovative Model Works kit of the same prototype, which cost less than what he had to put into the Athearn scrapper.  It was an experiment to see if it could be done, but it also proved it wasn't worth it.

I buy quality kits or ready to run models so that I can spend more of my time getting the rest of the layout finished.  If you think I'm less of a craftsman because I don't want to scratchbuild a model of the same thing I can get ready to run, so be it, but I'm not going to do something stupid to suit your opinions.  If I can save myself some time and get better results, I will do that, and it doesn't hurt anyone if I do.

Things are good...for now...

Things are good for you, for now, but then you haven't been priced out of the market yet.  That's what these pocketbooks do - they stretch markets as far as they will bear.  And then they leave you out of the market - not just beginners, who get cut out first, but regular timers too.

Now the thing about your friend and his experience with the Athearn block, is that while he was free to buy the base piece customize it, that base piece was still available for sale to the general public, and that includes the general modeler.  And further, in it's rudimentary form, it's ready to go right out the door.  The furthest I personally go with these pieces is metal wheels and Kadee couples - the bottom line for good operation. 

The part I'm getting at, and what was hit upon by Mr. Fugate, is the fact that these base blocks have disappeared from our hobby as the upper line has pushed the manufacturers over to the more lucrative [fewer units, higher price per unit] pieces which get the proto people very excited, but then that price tag really puts a damper in how far that product reaches.

Now regardless of what your models look like, your operational abilities are not going to improve because the cars are "more prototypical in appearance regards.  Although you may be more afraid to touch or drop those expensive cars, it still comes down to a simple concept of hauling loads from origination to destination.  Basic operational handling ability is a skill, but it's not a skill I'd ever compare to the building process your friend went through converting his boxcar.

In short, you can now be a beginner with a thoroughly detailed layout full of designer locomotives and rolling stock that exactly match the prototype if you have the cash.  But as far as modeling goes, you're still a beginner. And as far as the rest of it goes, a simple hitch in your domestic economic plan and the whole thing comes down and goes away.

How likely are you to give that $40.00 boxcar away to someone just getting into the hobby?  Think long and hard about this...

Funny....

I got my new Model Railroader the other day (October, I guess it is - decent issue w/lots of good info, btw) and thought it amusing that their editorial note was on artistic license - and how to balance freelance (and sometimes flat out wrong) vs. strictly prototype.

Great minds think alike, I guess.

What, exactly is all the concern about?

What, exactly is all the concern about bringing people into the hobby?

Is it a competition with other hobbies?

Is it some unfounded belief that a larger and larger hobby population is necessary for the hobby to survive?

Is it a genuine willingness to share experiences with others?

Is it a way to mask current hobbyist's insecurities about how they spend their free time, by pointing out all the other people who do (or might)?

Is it some unfounded belief that a larger and larger hobby population will drive down product prices?

I'm just curious why this becomes a concern at all.  The hobby is what it is, and is what it is on an individual basis. 

Isn't it enough to simply enjoy what you do in your free time? Sure, it's nice to share that interest with others,  but that doesn't explain the need for a constant membership drive that folks seem to concerned about.

Benny, you don't make sense.

In another thread you are raving about the $400.00 Ring Engineering throttle being the "wave of the future" that is going to make conventional dcc obsolete, and then you complain that not being able to buy $5.00 blue box car kits will price folks out of the hobby!

Cheap Cars

Bachmann and Model Power are still around if you like cheap crappy cars only loosely based on the real thing.

Accurail is a step up, with mostly very accurate cars but without any sort of fine detailing. Instead of bitching about how you don't like how manufacturers have made quality and detail much nicer for the rest of us, go fetch.

Rivet Counters

Bully for you! While everyone can choose what they prefer, to attract new "modelers" to the hobby, a better balance needs to be struck. Just look at the MSRP's and you will get the picture. Detailing and sound etc. is very nice. Modeling exactness or "close enough" is good too. However, just like hot rods; NASCAR; football, basketball, and the myriad of other things, we will be moving to a point where only the wealthy can afford to participate (or even watch - aka price of good tickets to an event) the hobby. Even visiting the "shows" to get into the hobby are getting more and more expensive.

Get back to affordable KITS that young and old folks can enjoy putting together. If it is good enough, then it is good enough. If not, then details are available - again, at an affordable price. I model a prototype railroad that is a "Fallen Flag" as I remember it and as I would envision it today. This allows me to use "good enough" equipment and scenery without worrying about exactitude and rivets.

Somebody please save us from advancements in technology!! It's no wonder that people "ooh" and "aaah" when visiting historical locations and displays and wonder at the marvel of doing something that doesn't come by punching buttons or wiring a chip processor. I am pleased at the responses I get from visitors to my little slice of nostalgia - it seems "good enough."

So what's different from before?

The problem that I see is that the highly detailed, prototypically accurate models are so expensive that individual freight car prices may drive away customers. 

I built my first Athearn boxcar (Lackawanna) in 1957. Cost all of $1.29 plus tax. Sounds cheap, right? Suppose that car were still available today. The equivalent cost would be $10.37. If you buy metal wheel sets in packs of 100 from a discounter (say MB Klein), it'll cost you about $0.70/axle to replace the plastic wheel sets. That adds $2.80 to the price and we're now above $13. A bulk pack of Kadee #158 couplers runs a bit over $65.00 for 50 pairs. That adds another $1.30 and ups the total to $14.47. However, that's only if you do the wheels and couplers in bulk (and assumes you do a potload of cars). The Athearn RTR stuff today has better paint and sharper graphics than that stuff from way back when, so there's been a qualitative improvement as well. That's worth something.

If you take a look at some of the old "craftsman" kits of the :"good old days", they weren't cheap by a long shot. Take the old Walthers wood and metal passenger cars from the 50's (sans trucks, couplers, interiors, underbody detail, etc). I don't have old Walthers catalogs available anymore, but as I recall, by the time you "superdetailed" a car, added interior, trucks, couplers, paint and a decal job, you'd be well over $10 (about $80 in todays currency). Correct me if I'm wrong, but Central Valley 6 wheel passenger car trucks cost about $3.25 fifty plus years ago. That's over $26 today.

There is one thing a lot (maybe even most) people are forgetting and that's that there is much, much more available now than there was then. I'll give you a ferinstance. Athearn's new GP-9 and MT-4 4-8-2 are now available, along with Bowser's Baldwin AS-616. If you go by MSRP, that's nearly $1000 worth of locomotives decorated SP specific if you bought 1 of each. I want all three. Can't afford all three, at least not all at once. That wouldn't have been an issue 50 years ago because the variety just wasn't there. It's like being a kid in a candy store having an amazing variety and me with a limited budget. You can only afford so much. Still, I'd rather have that problem than the one we used have, which was the candy store was well stocked, but with the same tired old stuff.

Mike

Bachmann, interestingly

Bachmann, interestingly enough, is one of the few companies who has been serving the beginner now and they continue to do so without losing a step in their stride.  Today they have upgraded their beginner models to accommodate by and large those things we recognize are mechanically necessary for good operation - body mounted couplers and metal wheel sets.  I find it interesting how you beat them into the ground - isn't this precisely what Joe is talking about?  Beginners need not apply? 

And yet Bachmann is the one company [Well, Kader, but talking about Bachmann without invoking Kader is like talking about Chevy without invoking General Motors] who has made everything from Thomas to Hogwarts to the Polar Express to Two Full Out scales [G and On30] and even affordable DCC available for the masses.

Bachmann is also the company who has consistently released what they promised to release, only they make their announcements not years in advance, but literally months and in some cases weeks [look, for instance, at how soon the N scale 2-10-2 came out after release at the 2011 NTS show] in advance.  If you go into a hobby shop, AKA one of the "we're about hobbies, not just trains," who's products do you find on the shelf?  Surprised?

Yes, I am excited about Ring's Software.  The simplicity of their system is right where DCC has needed to go for the last ten years.  The cost is indeed still up there, but it's only a matter of time - and already, there's that stiff competition offered by the iPhone app throttles which I do believe will have a profound effect on the market.  In time, this is going to deliver the full functionality of the big boys toys to the likes of the Bachmann systems - give it time.

There's one other great assistant to the bottom rung - and that's Atlas, through their Trainman line, which continues to provide a quality product at a price no so difficult to swallow.

There is truth to the graying of our hobby.  There's also some truth to the element that there's always been graying in our hobby.  However, what we're not getting today is that kid who gets the RC car instead of a railroad.  And it's economics making the kill - Mom did some really GOOD math there while she was in the store!!

Prototypers not killing the hobby, regardless what you think

"Things are good for you, for now, but then you haven't been priced out of the market yet.  That's what these pocketbooks do - they stretch markets as far as they will bear.  And then they leave you out of the market - not just beginners, who get cut out first, but regular timers too." - Benny

Wow Benny, when I wrote "There is no right or wrong way to be a model railroader" that just zoomed right over your head, didn't it?

Stop being ticked off at the prototype modellers!

They are not destroying the hobby, regardless of your individual opinion. Obviously the bulk of the hobby disagree with you, or else Intermountain, Kato, Athearn, Atlas, etc, etc, etc, would not be manufacturing great models for 20+ years now. Also the entire European and Japanese markets are totally at odds with your 'cheapest is best' attitude.

Remember that Model Power, Bachmann and Walthers still offer quality toy train sets for under $100 to hook the beginners. Accounting for inflation the cost of these sets is the same as the $30-50 range in 1975, and the quality is superior. They provide nickel silver track, rolling stock with good weight and metal free-rolling wheels, paint and lettering improved, and the locomotive mechanisms will run well for years (unlike the 70's Tyco stuff that used to break the week after Christmas).

As for your canard about costing, which I quoted above, well this is a bad topic to get into with me considering its part of my livelihood. So let's do the costing of this Athearn boxcar upgrade I did years ago, the one that Jurgen mentioned earlier.

The background on this project - I was attempting to create a reasonable model out of a traditional 40ft Athearn boxcar, the prototype was a Canadian Pacific 1937-AAR boxcar built between 1937-1946. CP got 6 different orders, so details vary over time, the Athearn car would have to represent a later-built car due to the raised panel roof. The point of this project was to see if an Athearn car could be salvaged to the match the level of quality of the recently released Innovative Model Works 1937-AAR car (purchased long ago by Intermountain, still in production) which was selling for $20/kit. The Athearn car was much cheaper, and I had several dozen as stock, so I thought my kitbashing could be a money saver.

Here is the costing, based on 1993 Canadian dollars, the inflation rate is 1.4122% (1993 to 2011) based on Bank of Canada numbers. Ignore the exchange variances since these are the real costs for me living in Canada.

I add labour costs because my time is worth something (and part of the true costing), and at that I'm charging well below minimum wage for my efforts. So in 1993 dollars this project is way over the cost of just buying the old IMWX car, adding metal wheels and Kadee couplers, and painting it up for CP. My labour + parts costs is much lower for that. And the Athearn car still had the problem of oversized rivet detail and incorrect roof slope versus the IMWX car. Even if you discount my labour and the cost of the Athearn car (since I already owned it) the cost is what the IMWX car was at that time.

Now if you adjust for inflation, in 2011, even if you remove my labour and the cost of the Athearn car (again which you shouldn't), with that $27.74 I can look for a sale and purchase this car from True Line Trains for that money.

OK this one has a flat-panel roof, but this car will be coming out with a raised panel roof in TLT's next release. The point is this ready-to-run 1937-AAR CPR boxcar is a 100% accurate model that only requires weathering. Taking an Athearn scrapper and adding all the time, effort, detail parts, decals, and my labour ...and this costs WAY WAY more than the $30 to just buy this car and weather it. Added bonus is it's accurate, unlike the Athearn upgraded car.

Now Benny, I can kitbash with the best of them, so your self-rightous attitude againt modellers who throw their pocketbooks at the hobby does not apply to me. I try to save money too and still kitbash, for that matter I scratchbuild stuff too. But I do not sacrifice quality, I want my stuff to look good. These R-T-R quality cars are a money saver because these are projects that I do not need to concentrate on, and I can spend my kitbashing efforts on items that will never become R-T-R models.

If you don't agree with me that's fine.

This is how I pursue the hobby, I know my way isn't for everybody, and I never try to impose my opinion on anyone.

This hobby is full of different approaches, none of which are correct or incorrect.

So Benny - Stop pontificating that only YOUR way is the right way, and the hobby is doomed if we don't follow your words. You probably have no idea how arrogant your posts are ...and dead wrong.

Ted Kocyla

What might kill the hobby...

.....is all of us writing and reading posts about how the hobby is dying, instead of actually WORKING on the Hobby.

LOL!!!  I really have to laugh at all the energy and time expended on how this is wrong, or that is wrong with the hobby and the manufacturers, and yet those who are complaining are STILL in the hobby! I for one wouldn't want to invest time, energy, or money in a hobby that is dying!

Oh, and the only reason why I am reading this thread is i need to sit down and rest from working in the basement preparing it for the future Interim P&A!!!  That and need a good laugh!

Ken L

LOL

Ken,

You hit the nail on the head.  This from one who just moved from the workbench chair 4 feet over to the desk/computer chair, so I could peruse MRH while the glue dries. 

My Experience

I have to share a quick story on the relevance of this subject as far as whether our increasing quest for detail and protoypical accuracy is effecting the hobby. I have a friend who's young son, now 11 is very interested in trains. His grandfather was a railroader which gave him his initial interest. After finding this out, I invited him and his father over to view my layout and let him run some trains. He was there for several hours and had a blast. He later received his first train set for Christmas a month or so later, and of course his father had all kinds of questions for me. I offered to help in any way I can. My theory was that if I can steer him toward building a layout that will be enjoyable instead of frustrating it would keep him interested in the hobby. I gave him some of my old track planning books and scenery how-to's. The layout progressed to the point of a complete bench work and a temporary track arrangement. He even bought a few higher-end cars with his hard earned money to go along with his original set. Then his father started telling me he wanted his trains to look "rusted and dirty like Kevin's" and his nice clean cars looked "fake". All the while dad was telling me that grab irons, stirrups and the like were breaking off at record rate. That was the first time I thought that perhaps my influence was a little bit detrimental.

I think there is a fine line here and I'm not sure what the answer is. I myself am slowly gravitating toward the more prototypical freight cars, advanced control systems and the like. But there has to continue to be a place for the 11 year olds out there that are too old for Thomas, and maybe too young for scale grab irons. As well as those that can't afford $45 dollar freight cars and $500 control systems. I think currently there still are some with products such Atlas Trainman. But maybe the market says no as Athearn saw it to their benefit to discontinue the Bluebox line. I hope this direction doesn't contribute to the next generation not getting interested in trains.

Maybe some articles with the younger or less serious modeler in mind would be a good idea. I certainly wouldn't have any objection to it in a publication like MRH. But then again, would articles like that even get the attention of the young modeler when that realistic rusted and rivet accurate $499 locomotive article is on the next page.

Yes this thread is a joke, too bad some don't get that

Ken and Don, you both are correct. This thread is a joke because there is no imminent death of the hobby.

Mr Fugate crafts an editorial in each issue to act as an iconoclast and challenge our views. The joke is when certain people take this particular one to heart and consider it proof that the death of the $4 Athearn blue-box kit = death of the hobby.

If that were true then the model railroad hobby would have been dead in Germany and Japan over 30 years ago.

Mr Fugate knows just as I do that the hobby changes, and so the way beginners enter now it is very different than it was decades ago. The boom in quality R-T-R models in fact allows the novice to achieve excellent results with minimal effort. This in turn gives them more time to build superior looking layouts. Yes this costs more, but it lowers the bar for people who can't kitbash to have great equipment.

This isn't killing the hobby. This is allowing more who want to get serious to participate because not everyone can build a kit, let alone bash one ...and add paint and decals on top.

For Mr Klettke, your observations are valid. For the 11-year old Model Power, Bachmann, Walthers and Atlas-Trainman offer great products without the fine details to break.

The model railroad hobby is in danger of dying as much as guitar-powered rock and roll, in other words don't bet on it. Just because some people don't want to pay more than $4 for a boxcar is not proof an entire pass-time is in danger of extinction.

Yes yes yes... we all

are responsible for the 'unpopularity' of the hobby. 

How many [few?] of us give nieces or nephews a train set at Christmas?   And, what IS a train set? 

WE hobbyists make Models. Models amaze kids, they also intimidate them.

The manufacturers make sets that require tables or boards to run on.  That's an imposition on time-pressed parents.  Floor space?  Preparation and laying out? Who has the time... space... energy?

Can we get this right?  As long as these are the things that are required to 'Enter' the hobby, entrants will continue to decline.

While it's not a 'model' product... I applaud the EZ-track concept... ballast, rails and relatively easy assembly in one product.  I for one, won't use it (out of preference), but I'd give it to a newcomer... for reasons listed above.  More of such "good enough", please!

-Peter

Beginners Need Not Apply

I agree that the complexity of the hobby is a cause for concern with respect to newcomers coming on board.  I doubt that prototype modeling has much to do with it as I'm sure most people either delve into the prototype issue to the extent they are or are not interested without feeling pressured one way or the other.

I think a larger issue is the complexity of the hobby in general.  When I started out you just had to hook up your MRC power pack, plop an Athearn DC loco on your Atlas track and you were off and running and with a fair amount of mechanical reliability.   Simple.  Not so any more.   Many of us were in the hobby when technology started making it's mark and had the advantage of learning and  adjusting slowly as things gradually become more complex.  Not so for the newcomer who has to absorb it all at once.   DCC, vast product selections, information overload, where do they start?

The issue of product and construction technique selection also comes into play.  There is so much to choose from, where do you start?  It's a real mine field in that some products are great, others...well....not so good and can be very discouraging for somebody just starting out.  Same for techniques.  There are simple and effective ways to build a layout and old myths that are complex and not so effective.

Your chances of having a successful start were greater back in the day.  That said, for those that muddle through and hit critical mass the products today are light years ahead in terms of capability.

Lance

Visit Miami's Downtown Spur at http://www.lancemindheim.com